Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master KChief on September 06, 2011, 10:47:37 PM
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can samuel band to king david? king david is a 1 samuel hero in the REG, but the reference is not on the card.
Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
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Either the answer is "For now, yes" or "The new REG cannot be trusted any more than the old REG."
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I thought this would be ruled the same way as Matthew with AoCP. No reference, so nothing on the card to say "this is a 1 samuel hero!"
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If AoCP still has a reference in the new REG, then I would actually rule that Matthew can recur it.
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SNAP! Ill go check...
Authority of Christ (P)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Evil Characters in play. May not be interrupted, negated, or prevented. • Play As: Discard all Evil Characters in play. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Matthew 8:27 • Availability: Promotional cards (2001 National Tournament)
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Special ability entries were updated in the "new REG". Definitions were updated in the "new REG". To the best of my knowledge, individual card entries were not updated in the "new REG". Thus there are still several "play as" that are inaccurate because they are errata.
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matthew specifically looks for a card with a matthew reference. samuel does not say reference. does this make a difference?
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With all the efforts to shorten SA's, I think it's the same thing.
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matthew specifically looks for a card with a matthew reference. samuel does not say reference. does this make a difference?
I believe it would make a difference if David had been King at all in I Samuel. If that were the case, I would probably rule that Samuel could band to King David, just like he could band to a converted Goliath, even though Goliath has a reference from I Sammuel.
However, the reference given to KD by the REG is the reference on his other cards, and would likely not have been the reference given to him were he to be printed today, since he wasn't made King until II Samuel. That is why I would have to rule that Samuel can't band to King David.
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If we're making rulings on how cards would have been printed, can we have a working Split Altar plz?
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are we ruling cards based on what they should be or what they are? split alter has to be ruled upon fairly based on wording for worse. is it not right to rule this card fairly just the same, even if the mistake results in something for better?
edit: instaposted.
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The difference is that the "references" given by the REG should not be there: cards with no reference on the physical card should remain cards with no reference, as was discussed in the Matthew/AoCP discussion. However, even cards with no references (or misspelled references, like Goliath) could still be considered to have book/testament based identifiers, such that AoCP should be ruled an NT enhancement, Samson should be ruled an OT Hero, and if I had to rule, King David would be a II Samuel Hero. The fact that the "references" are in the REG is unfortunate, but I don't see how we could say King David is a I Samuel hero based on that reference when we have said that AoCP doesn't have a Matthew reference.
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If we're making rulings on how cards would have been printed, can we have a working Split Altar plz?
We could if the King David card were actually printed to have any reference whatsoever. King David has no reference so it is not a I Samuel card no matter whether or not the REG has the correct verse listed.
If you want to go off on a jeremiad my preference would be that you stick to your original "the new REG is completely bogus" and leave Split Altar out of it completely.
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How about we just fix the new REG? If we don't the REG will continue to be irrelevent.
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How about we just fix the new REG? If we don't the REG will continue to be irrelevent.
Wasn't that the whole point of a new REG? So we could fix the old one? It seems that everything got fixed but the part we complained about the most.
/So no one complain about drawing until the next set. Then they'll fix it.
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Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
Before whacking away at special abilities willy-nilly, please consider the consequences.
1. If only King David was to be searched for, then it should have read "King Saul or King David" OR "Kings Saul or David". As printed, a player can search for David or King David.
2. As printed, "a male I Samuel Hero" can be any hero that is found in the book of I Samuel. It doesn't matter what the reference is on the hero card. I can't recall off the top of my head, but there is at least another card like this on which Bryon ruled the same way. (If I have the time I'll go find it, unless it's on the old boards.)
Finally, regarding Split Altar I gave up the ghost on that awhile ago. I am somewhat mollified that the new set gave us some new green that makes it a fun and playable brigade again. But it will never make up for the crimes against SA and ANB. ;)
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1. That was intended.
2. Has anyone gone through I Samuel and picked out all the characters yet?
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2. Has anyone gone through I Samuel and picked out all the characters yet?
here (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/gloss_isamuelhero.htm) ya go. :o
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1. That was intended.
There's an old expression: "The road to he11 is paved with good intentions."
2. Has anyone gone through I Samuel and picked out all the characters yet?
here (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/gloss_isamuelhero.htm) ya go. :o
This (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+1&version=NKJV) is better. ;)
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2. Has anyone gone through I Samuel and picked out all the characters yet?
here (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/gloss_isamuelhero.htm) ya go. :o
Actually, that's just a list of ones with a reference from I Samuel. Anyone mentioned in I Samuel is what I'm looking for.
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2. Has anyone gone through I Samuel and picked out all the characters yet?
here (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/gloss_isamuelhero.htm) ya go. :o
Actually, that's just a list of ones with a reference from I Samuel. Anyone mentioned in I Samuel is what I'm looking for.
:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: And I felt smart for a moment too. :P
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I just read through the entirety of 1 Samuel in NIV (albeit speed reading) and came up with the following list of heroes mentioned in 1 Samuel (most of them are listed chronologically).
Hannah
Eli the Priest
Samuel
Eleazar the Guard
King Saul
Rachel (Rachel’s tomb is mentioned)
Jacob
Moses
Aaron
Gideon
Barak
Jephthah
Jonathan
Prince Jonathan
Armorbearer
David
Ahimelech, Priest at Nob
Gad
Abiathar
Abigail
Ahimelek the Hittite
Abishai
Joab
The names “Benjamin” and “Judah” are mentioned numerous times in reference to the tribe. Does that mean Benjamin and Judah are listed in 1 Samuel?
1 Samuel 14:50
50 The name of Saul’s wife was Ahinoam the daughter of Ahimaaz.
I am not sure if this is the same Ahimaaz as the priest. It seems far-fetched that it would be the same as Ahimaaz was the high priest while Solomon was king after the construction of the temple (as his father Zadok was high priest at that time), so I don't think it is the same Ahimaaz.
Kirk
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Now I'm really hoping this ruling gets reversed. Samuel is bad enough without banding to Moses and Gideon.
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And to back up Scott (for those of you wondering which threads show the ruling that Joab promo can band to any hero mentioned in 1 and 2 Samuel, regardless of the card's reference), refer to these threads.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/joab-promo/msg349644/#msg349644 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/joab-promo/msg349644/#msg349644)
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/joabs-banding/msg439627/#msg439627 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/joabs-banding/msg439627/#msg439627)
Kirk
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Now I'm really hoping this ruling gets reversed. Samuel is bad enough without banding to Moses and Gideon.
The concern about Moses I get, but Gideon isn't so Bad.
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What's the big deal with a 4/4 banding to Moses? Edict is nice, but still...
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edict wont even be cbn because sam isnt the only hero in battle.
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...right. I need to re-read all the new cards.
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What I am excited about is discarding my Joseph from hand and then attacking the next turn with Samuel to band to Judah to exchange for Joseph. Then the haters can really hate. :)
Kirk
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oh snap.
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Moses (Wa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: All special abilities on character cards and enhancement cards except this one are interrupted and prevented. Battle is determined by the numbers. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge & Musician, Prophet, Fought Earthly Battle, Priest, Angel, Royalty, Egyptian, NT hero, I Samuel hero • Verse: Exodus 3:14
Am I forgetting any identifiers?
;)
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chuck norris.
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Now I'm really hoping this ruling gets reversed. Samuel is bad enough without banding to Moses and Gideon.
Don't worry. This isn't a ruling that Sam can band to those Heroes. It's something said previously in this thread based on a misunderstanding. They confused Samuel with Joab. Their abilities are not worded the same. Joab says "any Hero mentioned in..." where Samuel specifically requires a I Samuel reference on the card.
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Oh great and then BOTH of those heroes are in the same coherent deck. ;D
Also why is no one talking about how unfair it is to band Cherubim to him. Then they can't even stop you with dominants. >.<
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where Samuel specifically requires a I Samuel reference on the card.
When it comes down to a choice between number of words and the headaches incurred by the Redemption populace, why are the headaches always chosen? Conspiracies begin that way, e.g. there's a backroom deal with Bayer and Tylenol.
:P
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I didn't realize that we made the ruling that I Samuel Hero meant a reference from I Samuel was required. While I certainly agree that would be the easiest solution, it should probably be clarified. So would this mean that Sam can't band to a converted Goliath?
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So is the final consensus that Sam can't band to anyone without a 1 Samuel reference on the card.
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Oh great and then BOTH of those heroes are in the same coherent deck. ;D
Also why is no one talking about how unfair it is to band Cherubim to him. Then they can't even stop you with dominants. >.<
Then you lose the D2 from Oak.
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2. As printed, "a male I Samuel Hero" can be any hero that is found in the book of I Samuel. It doesn't matter what the reference is on the hero card. I can't recall off the top of my head, but there is at least another card like this on which Bryon ruled the same way. (If I have the time I'll go find it, unless it's on the old boards.)
If this was true, then Purple King Hezekiah banded to Isaiah would make the band CBN (since Isaiah says "Good Isaiah cards cannot be negated" and Hezekiah is in Isaiah chapter 37).
I don't think being mentioned in a book makes the card "a card from that book". It makes it "a card mentioned in that book". Otherwise, the following heroes would be NT for being mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11:
Abel
Enoch
Noah
Abraham
Sarah
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses (but we already knew this)
Pharaoh's Daughter
Gideon
Barak
Jephthah
Samson
David
Samuel
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Answer to Prayer (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/answertoprayerff.htm) cannot search for The Angel of the Lord (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16:7&version=KJV).
Nobody has counted Ruth (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1:5&version=KJV) as a N.T. female for He Is Risen (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/heisrisenra.htm) or Susaana (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/susannatp.htm).
Aaron (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/aarondi.htm) does not band to Jacob (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+6:3&version=KJV).
And Samuel (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/samuelra2.htm) clearly only bands to a male Hero with a I Samuel reference on the card.
When a special ability or identifier references cards based on scripture, it's solely based on the scripture reference on those cards, not all the places you might find them referenced in the Bible. The only exception I can think of is Joab, who spells it out in the special ability my saying "mentioned in I and II Samuel". This isn't new language being used on Samuel. I'm not sure why it's suddenly confusing to people.
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I get that but what I don't get is the uber strick reference rule. I am guessing that the cards without a reference are that way because back in that day they didn't want to take up more space in addition to righting PROMO, not for game play purposes. There is no good reason to exclude them from being able to be used as intended/should because it was simply overlooked, an honest mistake (I say overlooked because Goliath was reprinted with a scripture reference). Besides recurring Aocp with Matthew isn't that great anymore, if it ever was. Just a hobbit's opinion. ;)
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Answer to Prayer (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/answertoprayerff.htm) cannot search for The Angel of the Lord (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+16:7&version=KJV).
Nobody has counted Ruth (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+1:5&version=KJV) as a N.T. female for He Is Risen (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/heisrisenra.htm) or Susaana (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/susannatp.htm).
Aaron (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/aarondi.htm) does not band to Jacob (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+6:3&version=KJV).
And Samuel (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/Master/samuelra2.htm) clearly only bands to a male Hero with a I Samuel reference on the card.
When a special ability or identifier references cards based on scripture, it's solely based on the scripture reference on those cards, not all the places you might find them referenced in the Bible. The only exception I can think of is Joab, who spells it out in the special ability my saying "mentioned in I and II Samuel". This isn't new language being used on Samuel. I'm not sure why it's suddenly confusing to people.
Duly noted. I think the "I" (or "1", if you will) in front of Samuel was throwing me off...or at least reminding me of the Joab ruling.
However...
Samuel (RA2)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)
Before whacking away at special abilities willy-nilly, please consider the consequences.
1. If only King David was to be searched for, then it should have read "King Saul or King David" OR "Kings Saul or David". As printed, a player can search for David or King David.
2. As printed, "a male I Samuel Hero" can be any hero that is found in the book of I Samuel. It doesn't matter what the reference is on the hero card. I can't recall off the top of my head, but there is at least another card like this on which Bryon ruled the same way. (If I have the time I'll go find it, unless it's on the old boards.)
Finally, regarding Split Altar I gave up the ghost on that awhile ago. I am somewhat mollified that the new set gave us some new green that makes it a fun and playable brigade again. But it will never make up for the crimes against SA and ANB. ;)
I Am Correct regarding number 1. above. And don't give me the "that's not how it was intended", because that rings very hollow considering Split Altar.
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Again, that was intentional. He's meant to be able to search for all the Davids.
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Again, that was intentional. He's meant to be able to search for all the Davids.
Well, that's refreshing. :)