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How does Samuel pull David out from the draw pile if there's already a David in play? We've been discussing this at the Chambersburg Regional for a while now, and we haven't made any progress. DOesn't game rule dictate that if an actual cannot be fulfilled (in this case, because there's a David already in play), that the card would be placed in hand? Why would the original David in play get discarded?

Samuel (RA2)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Green/Yellow • Ability: 4 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate play abilities. You may search deck for King Saul or David and put it in play to draw 2. May band to a male I Samuel Hero. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Prophet • Verse: I Samuel 7:16-17 • Availability: Rock of Ages Extended booster packs (None)

It's like Reach. You may draw, may interrupt, and may play indepedendantly of the other actions. In this case, you may search and may play to d2. If you choose to only search, defaults say David goes to hand.

That's not quite the question though. We are trying to understand if you can force discard your own character by another copy? Say I had a david with Deceiving Sin on it in play and I use samuel to search for another David. Can I get rid of the one that has Deceptive Sin?

Yes. You get to choose which David you want to discard. Sam's ability works because his SA is causing the duplicate Davids to be in play. If a SA is forcing duplicates to be controlled by the same player, that player must discard one of the duplicates. However, you can not put down a duplicate character from hand if you already have one in play, as you, not a SA, are causing yourself to control duplicates.

Quote from: adotson85 on December 17, 2011, 01:10:13 PM

However, you can not put down a duplicate character from hand if you already have one in play, as you, not a SA, are causing yourself to control duplicates.

Why would you not be able to do that? The only thing that you are not allowed to do is "cause [duplicates] to fight each other."¹ In the scenario you are talking about, you are not allowed to control duplicates, so you discard one.

I guess you could argue that David is fighting himself for a place in your territory, kind of like Flynn and Clu from Tron. 


¹ Quoted from the REG Glossary.

If you look in the REG under Duplicate Cards it states: "No player may control duplicates of a unique character."

If you look in the REG under Duplicate Cards it states: "No player may control duplicates of a unique character."

Yes, which is why you have to discard one. It does not say that you may not cause two duplicates to be in play at the same time. It only says you cannot cause duplicates to fight each other.

You can't force yourself into control of a second copy of a unique character.

Where does it say that in the REG?

You can't force yourself into control of a second copy of a unique character.

You can do it, as long as you're not bringing said character into battle, and it's the use of a special ability.[1]

[1] game against ProfAlstad

Exactly, except if there is a may, then you may not.  In this case Samuel says may.  You're never forced to do something if the SA contains may.

I agree with STAMP. Reach says I may draw 3 cards, but if I'm already at hand limit, I can't draw 3 and then discard down.

I think we need an Elder ruling here. Clearly there are differing opinions about this situation. I have always ruled that you can play a character to discard the same unique character already in your territory. The REG does not say you cannot do that, but it does specifically say what you cannot do - bring a duplicate into battle. If you are not allowed to bring into play at all, then the REG needs to say so specifically just like the other situation that is not allowed.

Yea, it was quite irritating w/ capturing. But I thought u can't play a Unique Character if another one is in play. So I'd say it would go to hand, but I'm not a Redemption Elder,

My assumption is Samuel's "put in play" SA is a play ability, not a place ability. Is that safe to say?

That doesn't necessarily mean anything either. I've always been under the impression (until recently) that cards, if they could not be placed where they normally should (for whatever reason) defaulted to hand. It's only in recent convention, with the wide use of Sam, that I've seen this contested at all.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 18, 2011, 03:34:03 PM

That doesn't resolve anything. The REG does not say "you cannot play duplicates."

The REG does say "You cannot control more than one of a unique character.", which is basically the same thing.

No, it is not. Why be specific in one case but not another? All that "You cannot control more than one of a unique character" says to me is that if I do put one in play, then the other needs to be discarded.