Author Topic: Rule Proposal: Open Searching of Discard Pile (Read 14210 times)

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #75 on:** January 09, 2014, 04:07:05 PM »

Quote from: Ironica on January 09, 2014, 03:55:09 PM

Quote from: Read in Dirty Harry voice
I know what you're thinking, punk. You're thinking "did he use four head of gold or only three?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement. But being that head of gold, the most powerful Babylonian card in my deck and can wipe your territory clean, you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

Over ten rounds into type two and I forget how many of each card I played.

Maybe you can just tack it onto the upkeep phase to insure they don't spend all battle looking through their discard piles.

Nice quote...but I don't like the argument for T2 either. If I've played 3 or 4 head of gokd and cant remember, I'm going to the discard pile for it b/c I know ones there and not in the deck.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #76 on:** January 09, 2014, 04:47:09 PM »

Just another thought:
I don't really feel very good about a win that I get because my opponent forgot what was in his discard pile and failed a search there. I also don't feel very good about a loss where I forget what is in my discard pile and fail a search there. If I don't want to win or lose that way, then why keep this rule? Like I said earlier, it just seems ticky-tack.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #77 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:03:13 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 09, 2014, 04:47:09 PM

Just another thought:
I don't really feel very good about a win that I get because my opponent forgot what was in his discard pile and failed a search there. I also don't feel very good about a loss where I forget what is in my discard pile and fail a search there. If I don't want to win or lose that way, then why keep this rule? Like I said earlier, it just seems ticky-tack.

But do you want to lose because of the ability to abuse it?

Redoubter · « **Reply #78 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:05:59 PM »

Want to rebut a few arguments I've seen (can't get to them all, nor remember them...irony intended

).

1. It reduces the strategy of the game and dumbs it down if you can search discard pile.

I can't see this argument at all. The more strategic game involves seeing all options, and choosing the best solution (and outplaying your opponent), not memorizing what has been played. And if it were so strategic, then why do the most popular card games (including the most popular, with it's incredibly detailed rules and strategies), where the best CCG players in the world congregate, allow searching of discard piles?

2. Open discard piles will lead to stalling.

Impossible, unless we change the time limits already in place. We already have rules limiting the time per phase and action. There is already a way to deal with those who go over that limit. If you don't change that limit, there can be no increase to stalling that judges have the ability to disallow already.

3. It powers up cards that search deck or discard if the latter is open.

Actually, that's not true. I saw someone before mention that offense always wins, but that is certainly not true (plenty of searching on both good and evil), and when you think about it, abilities that search discard pile are actually more powerful now. There have been plenty of times in my T2 games where I have used AutO or AwSN to go to discard pile, just to look in it. I knew that some judges had gotten there during the game, and I didn't care who I got out in particular, but I could look at how many of each enhancement I had left, how many/what Canaanites were in there (for Fortify Site), and more. I couldn't do that normally, and neither can my opponent, so now I have an advantage over him just because I have the ability to search discard with my abilities.

So you cannot say that this is one-sided at all, open searching of discard piles actually equalizes everything and allows searches all the time instead of limiting it to specific abilities or situations. Also, it is definitely not offense-specific.

4. Closed discard piles is intuitive.

How? It is a pile of face-up cards, which anyone can look at anywhere else in Redemption. And see earlier, why would the most popular and successful CCG have open discard piles if it were counter-intuitive?

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 04:07:05 PM

Nice quote...but I don't like the argument for T2 either. If I've played 3 or 4 head of gokd and cant remember, I'm going to the discard pile for it b/c I know ones there and not in the deck.

Quick note here, the implication is that you have to consider where he has a 4th available in hand/deck, not that he'd pull one out of discard

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 05:03:13 PM

But do you want to lose because of the ability to abuse it?

It isn't abuse, it is strategy, when everyone knows what all face-up cards are and you outplay your opponent who knows the same thing.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #79 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:25:21 PM »

Yes the benefit is on both sides. I was just stating one way to use it. I dont think this is part of strategy. Strategy is building my deck to give me the best options to win and then performing those plays in game. That is why cards were created to search either/or. You have to choose. Sometimes your choice is wrong and make a mistake. The ability to search discard piles then actually takes away strategy.

browarod · « **Reply #80 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:27:51 PM »

And here I thought cards that searched either/or were made to be useful both early and late game rather than useless if you draw it at the wrong end of the game.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #81 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:48:33 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 05:03:13 PM

But do you want to lose because of the ability to abuse it?

I don't think that'll happen. I regularly let my opponents check their discard piles in fun games and it never takes much time at all. In fact, they probably play faster because they don't have to debate with themselves mentally about whether their card that they want is in their discard pile or not

AJ · « **Reply #82 on:** January 09, 2014, 06:55:31 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 05:25:21 PM

Yes the benefit is on both sides. I was just stating one way to use it. I dont think this is part of strategy. Strategy is building my deck to give me the best options to win and then performing those plays in game. That is why cards were created to search either/or. You have to choose. Sometimes your choice is wrong and make a mistake. The ability to search discard piles then actually takes away strategy.

How is not having good memory then having a mistake strategy.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #83 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:31:14 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 09, 2014, 05:48:33 PM

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
But do you want to lose because of the ability to abuse it?
I don't think that'll happen. I regularly let my opponents check their discard piles in fun games and it never takes much time at all. In fact, they probably play faster because they don't have to debate with themselves mentally about whether their card that they want is in their discard pile or not

Even in a tournament againt us down here...

Quote from: AJ on January 09, 2014, 06:55:31 PM

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 05:25:21 PM
Yes the benefit is on both sides. I was just stating one way to use it. I dont think this is part of strategy. Strategy is building my deck to give me the best options to win and then performing those plays in game. That is why cards were created to search either/or. You have to choose. Sometimes your choice is wrong and make a mistake. The ability to search discard piles then actually takes away strategy.
How is not having good memory then having a mistake strategy.

Your using a rule change for your benifit to "enhance" your stategy so you dont have to remember/memorize what you have played. So, I guess I don't have to memorize Scripture anymore because I have the Bible app on my phone. The reasoning behind the arguement is flawed.

Redoubter · « **Reply #84 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:36:31 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 08:31:14 PM

So, I guess I don't have to memorize Scripture anymore because I have the Bible app on my phone. The reasoning behind the arguement is flawed.

Be fair, that is not an appropriate analogy at all. Being able to play a game about fun and fellowship vs understanding the word of God is not a comparison. And there is nothing about 'enhancing' strategy, how does this disadvantage one player over the other when they both have the same capabilities? There is no advantage at all. You can look, I can look, it's even.

AJ · « **Reply #85 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:40:43 PM »

Some people geneticly arent as good at remembering so if you want to win a childrens card game because your opponent was born with not very good memory be my guest heck even MTG and YGO let you look at your discard pile and they are secular games so why wouldnt a christian card game try to be fair.

Redoubter · « **Reply #86 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:46:38 PM »

Quote from: AJ on January 09, 2014, 08:40:43 PM

...even MTG and YGO let you look at your discard pile and they are secular games so why wouldnt a christian card game try to be fair.

Also not really a good, or pertinent, argument

Rules are good or bad for a game, this isn't about secular vs Christian card games being good or bad, it's about the rules alone. Let's try to keep the points we make on the topic and not bring in things we can't really debate

AJ · « **Reply #87 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:51:49 PM »

In the end its about what you think is fair or unfair and i think its unfair that people with a better memory to have an advantage.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #88 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:53:07 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 09, 2014, 08:36:31 PM

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 08:31:14 PM
So, I guess I don't have to memorize Scripture anymore because I have the Bible app on my phone. The reasoning behind the arguement is flawed.

Be fair, that is not an appropriate analogy at all. Being able to play a game about fun and fellowship vs understanding the word of God is not a comparison. And there is nothing about 'enhancing' strategy, how does this disadvantage one player over the other when they both have the same capabilities? There is no advantage at all. You can look, I can look, it's even.

I know it's not a fair comparison, but this is the essential arguement. In competitive tournaments top players have a great advantage over younger/less skilled or whatever. It's a slippery slope. What other rules are we then going to change so everyone has a fair advantage?

AJ · « **Reply #89 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:55:43 PM »

Its not a slippery slope this is a rule that literaly hampers people with not as good of a memory.

Redoubter · « **Reply #90 on:** January 09, 2014, 08:59:44 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 08:53:07 PM

It's a slippery slope. What other rules are we then going to change so everyone has a fair advantage?

If you feel that is a true concern, then what rules would you expect to see changed? I can honestly think of no way that this would result in a slippery slope of changes 'in the name fairness', so could you give some examples? And there are far more reasons to change this rule than 'fairness' (outlined earlier), I don't know why this one is a sticking point

Usually, if things make things more fair, that's not something we disagree on

All kidding aside, is that the main problem you have, that other rules would result? If you could elaborate on what that would mean, maybe we could understand the issue better.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #91 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:09:12 PM »

Quote from: AJ on January 09, 2014, 08:55:43 PM

Its not a slippery slope this is a rule that literaly hampers people with not as good of a memory.

How is it not a slippery slope? What about guys who can count cards. Know your deck before you even get set up. Thats not fair either. What about players who have all the cards vs guys that dont. How is that fair? Essentially memory is a part of the game. That's how you get better. You know the cards, what they can do, what combos to use, especially in booster which Cliff/RTS is an expert at. That puts me at a disadvantage when i play him. It's how the game works.

AJ · « **Reply #92 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:18:37 PM »

Others have already agreed with rule change i think everyone knows what my oppinoin is and ill leave it at that.

Redoubter · « **Reply #93 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:20:35 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 09:09:12 PM

How is it not a slippery slope?

You say that, but then don't give me any actual examples about how things would change as part of this slippery slope. I'm sorry, but that doesn't help me to understand your particular problem with this part, please help me (being serious).

Counting cards is something extraordinary (as in I don't know a Redemption player who is a Vegas-level counter), but how would there be a rule on that even if we had an issue? Vegas's rule is they just throw you out to stop their losses, but Redemption is a very inclusive game (for good reason).

Knowing your deck before you set up, do you mean nickling? Well, there is an easy way to solve that: shuffle your opponent's deck instead of cutting (know players who do this every game), or call a judge to do that. It's already in the rules, and setting your deck goes against the code of Redemption (as in, a judge can disqualify you for cheating if you are caught), so I don't see how there would be a rule change here.

Knowing the types of cards is a skill that we also can't make rules about, nor should we. What is the problem with it, anyway? It is the way of any game, from Chess to Redemption, knowing the way parts of the game work is part of the game.

I'm being honest, please help me understand where this slope would go.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #94 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:26:37 PM »

I'm playing devil's adovocate with most of this..

. The change does benefit everyone, and I would for sure use it. I wonder how Cliff would feel when I for example use my Gid combo on him when I forget where Gideons at. We haven't heard from him really since this was all started.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #95 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:36:11 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 09, 2014, 09:20:35 PM

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 09:09:12 PM
How is it not a slippery slope?

You say that, but then don't give me any actual examples about how things would change as part of this slippery slope. I'm sorry, but that doesn't help me to understand your particular problem with this part, please help me (being serious).

Counting cards is something extraordinary (as in I don't know a Redemption player who is a Vegas-level counter), but how would there be a rule on that even if we had an issue? Vegas's rule is they just throw you out to stop their losses, but Redemption is a very inclusive game (for good reason).

Knowing your deck before you set up, do you mean nickling? Well, there is an easy way to solve that: shuffle your opponent's deck instead of cutting (know players who do this every game), or call a judge to do that. It's already in the rules, and setting your deck goes against the code of Redemption (as in, a judge can disqualify you for cheating if you are caught), so I don't see how there would be a rule change here.

Knowing the types of cards is a skill that we also can't make rules about, nor should we. What is the problem with it, anyway? It is the way of any game, from Chess to Redemption, knowing the way parts of the game work is part of the game.

I'm being honest, please help me understand where this slope would go.

I'm not talking about actual cheating...but the playing field already is not really fair. I'm by no means a top player, but Cliff or Tyler know what I'm playing within my first or second draw majority of the time. This puts me at a disadvantage from the start. Of course they are top players amd I lose to them often. I just think memory is part of the game and if you can't remember what you've played or where it's at. Thats your fault. Human error is part of game play. I do think someone with more game knowledge can see the problems with a change in the rule, but maybe I'm mistaken.

everytribe · « **Reply #96 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:39:13 PM »

I don't think we should change the rule. Although it would help me since I'm old and it's getting harder and harder to remember as I get older. But the doctors say that challenging your mind is a good thing and keeps the mind sharp. It's also good for those young developing minds. That's why I like the game of Redemption be cause it is challenging and helps me keep my mind sharp. It's also a humbling game I can easily get beat by the up and coming 10 year old because of the luck of the draw.

I also think game play and deck building should be a part of the game. I think too many players copy a deck or borrow a deck to play in a tournament. I find those players usually make mistakes because they don't remember what is in the deck or don't know why certain cards are in there. I always do better with a deck I have played for awhile and have made slight changes in. I know why every card is in the deck and I don't forget what cards I have played.

I think not being able to search a discard pile and in Booster Draft keeping the cards you select face down make the game more random and more fun. But that is just my humble opinion.

Knoxyouthpastor · « **Reply #97 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:44:33 PM »

Quote from: everytribe on January 09, 2014, 09:39:13 PM

I don't think we should change the rule. Although it would help me since I'm old and it's getting harder and harder to remember as I get older. But the doctors say that challenging your mind is a good thing and keeps the mind sharp. It's also good for those young developing minds. That's why I like the game of Redemption be cause it is challenging and helps me keep my mind sharp. It's also a humbling game I can easily get beat by the up and coming 10 year old because of the luck of the draw.

I also think game play and deck building should be a part of the game. I think too many players copy a deck or borrow a deck to play in a tournament. I find those players usually make mistakes because they don't remember what is in the deck or don't know why certain cards are in there. I always do better with a deck I have played for awhile and have made slight changes in. I know why every card is in the deck and I don't forget what cards I have played.

I think not being able to search a discard pile and in Booster Draft keeping the cards you select face down make the game more random and more fun. But that is just my humble opinion.

Is there a like button on this forum.

I agree with you.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #98 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:51:04 PM »

Quote from: Knoxyouthpastor on January 09, 2014, 08:31:14 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on January 09, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
I don't think that'll happen. I regularly let my opponents check their discard piles in fun games and it never takes much time at all. In fact, they probably play faster because they don't have to debate with themselves mentally about whether their card that they want is in their discard pile or not
Even in a tournament againt us down here...

Yep, I like to let opponent's take stuff back (even in tournaments). Of course I lost a game at Nats that way which cost me making the top-cut, but I just enjoy the game more when whoever wins defeats the best that the other player has to play. I don't want to win or lose because someone got an absolutely terrible draw, or made a silly mistake in the spur of the moment, or forgot what was in their discard pile. To me, that is a somewhat hollow victory or defeat. I want to see what happens when the best of what I've got goes up against the best of what they've got. That to me is a fun game.

But I also see that this is really coming down to personal taste. Some people value the memory dimension of Redemption, and other people don't really see that as being important. Given that the sides seem to be about even, it's probably best to maintain the status quo.

Drrek · « **Reply #99 on:** January 09, 2014, 09:58:29 PM »

As a person with a good memory, and someone who thinks it actually does add somewhat to the skill of the game to not allow a player to look at their discard, I still say this rule should be changed, simply because it gets accidentally broken all the time. I really don't believe the rule adds enough to the game to justify not fixing a situation where accidental cheating can and does occur

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Author Topic: Rule Proposal: Open Searching of Discard Pile (Read 14210 times)

browarod