Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Could we possibly get Elder input on this? The only Elder to post so far didn't seem opposed to the idea and if they're gonna change it this season it would be better done sooner before the big tournaments so that people can get used to it (not that it's really that much of a change, at least not deck-building wise, haha).

Can anyone think of any negative aspects of this besides the potential to stall (which can be taken care of in the wording of the rule change)?

I'll just reiterate that I think also changing the rules so that a player can fail searches and to require a reveal if a mandatory ability cannot be completed (like "opponent discards a good card from hand").

I spelled out my reasoning and proposed wording earlier, but I think all of those changes would make the game more consistent, easier to play, and easier to judge without losing anything from the game.  I'm not sure there is a downside to these proposals, personally.

I mean looking at an opponent's deck or hand is a huge advantage. You know exactly what your up against. Therefore you can better judge your own plays. Not that there aren't other ways to do it but it's just adding more ways to gain an advantage over your opponent. That's the way I see it.

To be clear, nothing in my proposal would allow them to look at your deck when they could not already.  That's the point of allowing searches to fail, you wouldn't have to reveal.

And the reveal of hand would just be for cases where an opponent could not do an ability.  If I play a card requiring you to do something to a good card in hand and you say "I don't have any good cards," you would have to reveal to show it.  That is standard in any card game I know, is good practice, and stops any chance of cheating (intentional or not).

Quote from: Redoubter on January 03, 2014, 10:57:11 AM

And the reveal of hand would just be for cases where an opponent could not do an ability. 

This has always been the rule.

Apparently not.  I have been told by multiple elders, and conferenced with several at Nats last year, and they made it very clear that unless an ability says you must reveal (like I Am Holy), you do not have to reveal.

And the fail option for searches makes it consistent regardless of whether the card exists or not, that you would be able to fail the search (and not reveal, if that were put in place for other locations).

Quote from: Redoubter on January 03, 2014, 11:30:49 AM

Apparently not.  I have been told by multiple elders, and conferenced with several at Nats last year, and they made it very clear that unless an ability says you must reveal (like I Am Holy), you do not have to reveal.

I have never been to Nats, so I am going off what was written in the old REG, which is the only way I have ever played it. Obviously there are several rules from the old printed REG that are now obsolete, but there was no official announcement of such a change, so I still play (and rule) that way. The rule was there for a reason and should not be changed IMO.

I agree that is how it should be ruled, and I only recently (past few years) picked up the game, so I can only say what I was told at Nats by elders regarding the history of this rule (was told it has always been this way).  I can say that it is not in the current rules at all that the reveal must occur, and I think that should change for sure.

PMs away

Hopefully I'm just wrong and that would correct the issue right away, I'll wait to hear back from them before posting on that subject again.

Quote from: Redoubter on January 03, 2014, 10:57:11 AM

And the reveal of hand would just be for cases where an opponent could not do an ability. 

This has always been the rule. I know that it was written that way in the old REG because I have a printed version of it. Likewise, you have to reveal a card that you searched for if it was specific (i.e. "Search for an evil character").

Apparently YMT has documentation of the rule.  And I remember it as a rule.  So that should be the way to rule it unless another elder disagrees.  Gabe is welcome to post here that he does NOT think that people should reveal in these situations.  Or another elder is welcome to chime in with their opinion on the matter.  But at any tournament that I'm at, I plan on ruling this way.

While I'd like for it to be a rule, it should certainly be documented if it is.

Me too.  Maybe send a PM to Prof A.  He often updates stuff like that.

I always thought it was stupid you couldn't look at your discard pile i'm all for the rule change

I would rather not dumb down the game if we could thanks.

In what way are we dumbing down the game here?

Maybe I should have said, "I would rather not simplyify the game in a way that encourages leveling out the playing field and takes advantage away from players who have good gameplay if we could, thanks." But thats essentially what dumbing down the game means. I don't think people who forget things are dumb its just a figure of speech. I don't think it makes much sense to discourage memory in a game when you need it in almost every area of strategy and bluffing. If players brush up on their memory skills because they forgot that all the He is Risens were in their deck and searched discard pile one time that would probablybe the last time they ever burned a Consider the Lilies like that. As people make mistake they get better at the game, its just a learning process. Why should everyone else have to sit through slower gameplay because a minority is simply misplacing the blame? If you are still making those mistakes you can only really be mad at yourself and not the rules of the game. Like I said memory is a big part of Redemption, so changing one aspect to make it more user friendly is not a bad thing. Memory would still be an important tool in the game and people with the best memories would still have an edge. Its just not really a necessary thing, its not even counter intuitive or constantly misplayed.  The bottome line for me is that I really think rules or cards that allow you to be more and more omniscient takes away from some of the mystery and fun of the game. Saying things like its 'counter intuitive' and is 'constantly played wrong' is just a cheap way of elevating your argument to untouchable heights. If it were so counter intuitive why would other card games have that rule? If it were constantly misplayed that's a problem but there is no way to illustrate that and it has not been my experience in 10+ years of Remption tournament play.

Although memory can be enhanced through repetition and mnemonic devices, there is definitely a genetic component to memory. Some people have photographic memories, and some people forget a joke seconds after it is told to them. What you are saying, Hobbit, is that the select few who have better memory should have an advantage in the game of Redemption over those who do not. I will absolutely disagree with this notion for as long as my opinion matters.