Author Topic: Rule Proposal: Open Searching of Discard Pile (Read 14260 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** November 13, 2013, 01:45:31 PM »

Rule Proposal: Open Searching of Discard Pile

Why cant we search our discard piles without needing an ability to do so? I can take notes and write everything down but should I have to? Who's with me?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #1 on:** November 13, 2013, 01:53:26 PM »

I've proposed this before and got shut down, but I will fight for it all the way.

Red · « **Reply #2 on:** November 13, 2013, 02:00:07 PM »

I'll fight for this to my last mental bone. We are supposed to get an advanced rulebook sometime, therefore allowing this to be put into it.

Iamalittleking · « **Reply #3 on:** November 13, 2013, 04:19:55 PM »

I have never under stood why one can not search there own discard pile at there own will.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #4 on:** November 13, 2013, 06:53:29 PM »

Because memorization is a skill or something. Idk bad logic was bad.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #5 on:** November 13, 2013, 09:52:41 PM »

I will add my endorsement of said proposal. While we're at it, can we also change the rule so that you can look at the cards you have drafted during a Booster Draft. I'm getting too old for memories.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #6 on:** November 13, 2013, 10:39:13 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 13, 2013, 09:52:41 PM

I will add my endorsement of said proposal. While we're at it, can we also change the rule so that you can look at the cards you have drafted during a Booster Draft. I'm getting too old for memories.

This rule I actually understand. It's more about time issues imo.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 13, 2013, 11:28:01 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on November 13, 2013, 10:39:13 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 13, 2013, 09:52:41 PM
I will add my endorsement of said proposal. While we're at it, can we also change the rule so that you can look at the cards you have drafted during a Booster Draft. I'm getting too old for memories.

This rule I actually understand. It's more about time issues imo.

What if you were able to set cards aside that you drafted in each pack and before opening the next pack players would be given 30 seconds to look through the 10 or so card they draft in the current pack only.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** November 14, 2013, 12:02:51 AM »

I would just set aside characters in general. That is what is hardest to remember - what color characters you have, and what ones you thought you had but don't. If you could at least make separate piles of your choice that would be helpful.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #9 on:** November 14, 2013, 12:16:56 AM »

Im with you YMT!

browarod · « **Reply #10 on:** November 14, 2013, 11:16:40 AM »

I'm definitely a fan of this rule. I understand having to know your deck (for searching that pile) but with all the cards played on both sides sometimes it's hard to remember what you've already played (especially if your opponent is playing the same offense and/or defense).

Drrek · « **Reply #11 on:** November 14, 2013, 12:54:27 PM »

I'm a fan for allowing the searching of discard, if nothing else than to stop people from accidentally breaking the rule (which happens all the time).

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** November 14, 2013, 03:06:23 PM »

The only downside I can see is that it could be another form of "legal stalling". But I don't think it would be that big of a deal.

Red · « **Reply #13 on:** November 14, 2013, 04:16:18 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on November 14, 2013, 03:06:23 PM

The only downside I can see is that it could be another form of "legal stalling". But I don't think it would be that big of a deal.

If it turned into that, just have the judges issue penalities.

Praeceps · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2013, 06:54:51 PM »

Has there been any thought on this recently?

yirgogo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2013, 06:58:30 PM »

I agree that you should be able too, especially in Teams with the partners having less idea about the other persons discard pile, so that it would be better for the teams.

dermo4christ · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2013, 07:02:04 PM »

I also want free searching of discard piles!

Isildur · « **Reply #17 on:** December 17, 2013, 07:08:19 PM »

The biggest argument against is it is a general rule in 99% of TCGs that you cannot search your discard pile.

With the introduction of top cut are we not trying to make Redemption more competitive and like the "other guys"?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** December 17, 2013, 07:23:04 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 17, 2013, 07:08:19 PM

The biggest argument against is it is a general rule in 99% of TCGs that you cannot search your discard pile.
[/quote

Are you saying that in most TCGs you can't search your discard pile? Because I've played several TCGs and the only one I've ever played that you can't search the discard pile is Redemption.

Isildur · « **Reply #19 on:** December 17, 2013, 08:18:14 PM »

ChristianSoldier would you mind mentioning what TCGs those are? I know for a fact that Magic, yu-gi-oh and (I think) Pokemon all have a cant search your discard pile rule. On top of that all of the games that Fantasy Flight (The guys who make the LCGs), Decipher and Wizards of the Coast have produced all have this same rule in place. Heck even Dominion and Legendary have a rule about not being able to search your discard pile

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 17, 2013, 08:18:14 PM

ChristianSoldier would you mind mentioning what TCGs those are? I know for a fact that Magic, yu-gi-oh and (I think) Pokemon all have a cant search your discard pile rule. On top of that all of the games that Fantasy Flight (The guys who make the LCGs), Decipher and Wizards of the Coast have produced all have this same rule in place. Heck even Dominion and Legendary have a rule about not being able to search your discard pile

You're mistaken.
As a player of Pokemon, I can say with certainty that they allow you to search any discard pile. Magic does too, according to this. As does YGO. So does Card Fight! Vanguard (see FAQ on open areas). Lord of the Rings TCG is a bit of a unique case, but you can at least look through your own discard pile (see here)

Are there any other card games that matter?

Isildur · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2013, 08:41:33 PM »

Quote from: Westy on December 17, 2013, 08:26:06 PM

You're mistaken.

Hey look at that... either the rules changed eons ago or ive been playing the games wrong all these years

(The rules you linked for the Decipher Lord of the Rings are actually out of date but thats besides the point....)

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2013, 10:00:03 PM »

I would be very much in favor of allowing the searching of discard piles, but I'd also like an overhaul of searching in general to allow for a player to fail searches and to require a reveal if an ability cannot be completed (like "opponent must discard a good card from hand").

My rules proposals listed out, with wording suggestions:

1. Remove the restriction on searching discard piles. Since there are no increases in time limits per phase/action, it would still prevent 'stalling'; the rules on time frames just need to be enforced as they are.

Proposed rule wording: N/A (removing old rule regarding not being able to search discard piles)

2. Require reveal of normally-hidden locations (mainly hand) where an ability cannot be completed due to no eligible targets. This would accomplish two critical functions. First, it prevents cheating (both intentional and unintentional, the latter of which we should still be concerned about even if some of us dismiss the first) by allowing verification. If a card requires that a good card be discarded, for instance, and the targeted player says they have none, they would have to reveal their hand. Second, it would limit judge review. I know of some players who have talked about having judges verify all of these situations when the targeted player does not reveal (because they do not have to by the rules), and this is well within their rights. By establishing this rule, no such delay would have to occur.

Proposed rule wording: "If an ability played by a player requires another player to take an action based their cards of a specified name, type, alignment, or brigade in hand, artifact pile, or face-down, the targeted player must reveal all cards in that location if they are unable to complete the ability. For example: Player A plays Persistent Pestering against Player B, which requires Player B to underdeck 2 good cards from hand. Player B only has 1 good card in hand. Player B underdecks the good card, and reveals their hand to show there are no more good cards to complete the ability."

3. Allow players to fail searches of their own deck. They must still shuffle their deck if they choose to search, or if the search is mandatory, but they do not have to reveal if they fail.. Players targeting their own decks with search abilities are beneficial, so failure of these searches should be allowed without penalty.

Proposed rule wording: "When a player searches their own deck, they may choose not to find an acceptable target for the search, even if one is in the deck. Any deck must still be shuffled if it is searched, regardless of whether the search succeeds."

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2013, 10:50:00 PM »

Quote from: Isildur on December 17, 2013, 08:18:14 PM

ChristianSoldier would you mind mentioning what TCGs those are? I know for a fact that Magic, yu-gi-oh and (I think) Pokemon all have a cant search your discard pile rule. On top of that all of the games that Fantasy Flight (The guys who make the LCGs), Decipher and Wizards of the Coast have produced all have this same rule in place. Heck even Dominion and Legendary have a rule about not being able to search your discard pile

It has mostly been answered so far, but Yu-gi-oh has always (since I started in the Metal Raiders era), Magic, The Gathering, the old Dragon Ball Z and Digimon games (as far as I remember), Android: Netrunner (not technically a TCG game but very close), I don't remember any such rule in Dominion or Legendary (although I have never read the Dominion rules and I haven't played Legendary in while).

Basically as far as I'm concerned not being able to search odd not normal.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** December 17, 2013, 10:50:59 PM »

Dominion doesn't allow it, but is a different breed of game.

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Author Topic: Rule Proposal: Open Searching of Discard Pile (Read 14260 times)

Warrior_Monk

browarod

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk