Author Topic: Reveal for Verifying Legal Targets  (Read 782 times)

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Reveal for Verifying Legal Targets
« on: June 23, 2017, 11:51:28 PM »
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Angel from the Altar:
You may banish up to X evil cards from a discard pile or you may exchange a good card from hand with a good card from Reserve. Cannot be negated if The Golden Altar is in play.

Noah:
You may exchange a card in hand or territory with a human of matching brigade (or 2 flood survivors) in deck or discard pile. May band to a flood survivor. Cannot be interrupted.

Quote from: REG>Reveal>Clarifications
All abilities that target hand have an implied reveal ability, where if the holder of the targeted hand cannot complete an action required by another ability or game rule, they must reveal that hand.  For example, if a card requires a player to underdeck two good cards from hand, they must reveal their hand if they can underdeck zero or only one.  If they can underdeck both and satisfy the requirement, there is no reveal.

Quote from: REG>Search>Special Conditions
If a search ability targets a specific type of card, reveal the targeted card before performing any other action with that card.

Do you have to reveal the card you exchange from hand with Angel from the Altar or Noah?  The REG entry on Reveal is about being unable to complete the action, not showing that you meet the requirements for the action.  The one on Search definitely applies to what you exchange for, but not necessarily the other end.

I think they should be revealed, but I don't see the rule to back it up.

Offline Bobbert

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Re: Reveal for Verifying Legal Targets
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 01:19:18 AM »
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Every time I've seen the cards in question played, the player has revealed.
Although it may not be officially ruled, my understanding of the underlying principle is that they are revealed to prove to the opponent that they are the correct card type. If there is no reveal it opens potential for cheating, and although we all know no Redemption player would cheat  :angel: 1 Thessalonians 5:22 says "Avoid all appearance of evil," so reveal the card even if there's no official rule for it.
ANB is good. Change my mind.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Reveal for Verifying Legal Targets
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 02:17:02 AM »
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Im not sure if this is codified in the rules anywhere but, I've always thought that any time a specific card type is specified on an ability then it must be demonstrated that the cards requiring types fulfill the criteria to complete the ability. (I.e. revealing the good card to be exchanged and the good card exchanged for with Angel from the altar to show that they were indeed both good cards) Under that logic depending how the flood survivor exchange is ruled I could see someone exchanging an unrevealed card for 2 flood survivors but have to reveal if trying to utilize the of matching brigade clause.
 
I'm pretty sure most judges would rule supporting the reveals to avoid cheating but if it's not in the REG then this might be an assumed rule. The Noah exchange for 2 flood survivors though might be debatable altogether but that's more due to the nature of the (or 2 flood survivors) clause.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Reveal for Verifying Legal Targets
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 08:16:03 AM »
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This is what is codified under "Clarifications" for Search:

Quote
Clarifications
● An ability that targets a card in a deck, discard pile, Reserve, banish pile or Artifact pile that is not in a specific
location in that pile, includes a search ability of the pile for the target.

Angel from the Altar targets a card in Reserve, and Noah targets a card from deck or discard pile, so both must be revealed.

However, Aggie's question is whether the card from hand has to be revealed. The REG does not seem to specify this, even though that was previously required. Perhaps an Elder could confirm whether this was an intended change.

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