Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Let's say my opponent successfully discards my Son of God from my deck (via Confusion or something).  I later use Angel at the Tomb to put Son of God back into my deck, and eventually draw it and play it.  I make a rescue attempt that allows me to play Goods Recovered.  Since Son of God was discarded from my deck by an opponent, and since it doesn't specify "without making a rescue" (as the Angel does), can I use Son of God again?


Angel at the Tomb: "If your Son of God card was discarded without making a rescue, shuffle it into draw pile. Cannot be negated."

Goods Recovered: "Discard one Raiders' Camp and return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from draw pile by opponent to draw pile. Shuffle draw pile. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Discard one Raiders' Camp. Return all captured Heroes to owner's territory. Return one of your good cards discarded from your deck by an opponent to your deck. Cannot be negated."

No.  Two separate things going on here and you can't apply the condition set up by Angel at the Tomb to Goods Recovered when SoG rescued in the middle of it all.

Also, some of you guys really need to get off this "show me in the REG where I can't do it."  It's not in the REG because until now it has not been discussed and received a ruling.  Well, here is your ruling.

Conversely, I would ask you to show me in the REG where is says you can do this?  If you can't point to a positive ruling then lack of a citation isn't enough to reach a definitive conclusion on something common sense should tell you is reaching at best ... and certainly not a basis for ridiculing Stephen - which some of you seem spring-loaded to do at every opportunity.  It's disgusting the lack of manners some of you display.

That is legal because the condition of Goods Recovered is the reason the card is in the discard pile.  And you are still only playing the card for its effect one time.

Cameron,

Schaef was responding to Tim's question, in which Son of God was discarded for CoM.  By the way, I did that in T2 this past weekend in a local tournament, and ended up winning. 

Kirk

Adjusted my response to address the end result, and not the middle.  Fact remains, there's only one use of Son of God being implemented.

Hey,

Also, does nobody else see the issue of T2 here? SoG x5, NJ x1, AotL. GOOD GAME.

Even if you are playing a deck with five copies of Goods Recovered and I discard your Son of God anyway, Goods Recovered sends Son of God back to the draw pile so you still have to find a way to get Son of God from your draw pile to your hand five times.  Not to mention you have to find a way to play Goods Recovered five times (I'm certainly not going to give you initiative to do so).

A Type 2 deck that is trying to play Son of God five times will lose 95% of it's games.  If you're happy with a 1-19 record by all means build that deck, and play it against me

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I still don't see how it works.  If you use your SoG it is not discarded by opponent, so how do you plan on returning it to your draw pile?

and while you are at it, you might as well use your goods recovered to pull out your nj, that way the game will go quicker.
The way i see it, we are blessed to have one SoG, any more and the game would get boring because people would just build decks to play one card... boring.

1. SoG is discarded by Confusion.  Play it.
2. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #1 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1).  Play it.
3. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #2 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1).  Play it.
4. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #3 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1).  Play it.
5. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #4 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1).  Play it.
6. SoG is recurred by Goods Recovered #5 (SoG was discarded by opponent in Step 1).  Play it.
Rob's already said that the combo doesn't work, but I'm a bit confused as to what part of the combo is a problem (aside from the whole Son of God x5 thing)

Well, for starters, Step 1's "Play it" doesn't work because it's discarded at that point.
The remaining steps don't work because in Step 3, SoG was discarded by game rule in Step 2, etc.

So if your SoG gets Confusioned then Forgotten History is played to remove it, can you get it back?  It was "discarded by an opponent" (or "without making a rescue", if you want to go that route).

What about for other cards, like heroes (TSA) or enhancements (AoCP)?  Does the copy that was discarded by an opponent need to be marked to stop arguments later in the game?

So if your SoG gets Confusioned then Forgotten History is played to remove it, can you get it back?  It was "discarded by an opponent" (or "without making a rescue", if you want to go that route).

No, once it's out of the game, nothing can target it to bring it back in.

What about for other cards, like heroes (TSA) or enhancements (AoCP)?  Does the copy that was discarded by an opponent need to be marked to stop arguments later in the game?

If that's how it works, then I guess so.  It's pretty easy to tell which is which by their place in the discard, though a couple of uncommon ways to mess with the order do exist.

Can you name one other condition of a card that you track for the entire game like this, no matter what else happens to it, that doesn't have a "uses per game" restriction?

Maybe healing cards.  It seems like they can target characters discarded because they have the attribute of "being discarded," even after they have hit the discard and apparently been reset.  Anything else of the sort I can think of gets reset in the discard.  The Angel at the Tomb/Goods Recovered stuff doesn't, so it must be different.

Angel at the Tomb makes it appear that, once discarded, a copy of Son of God has something (call it an "attribute" for the sake of my logic) that lets the angel know SoG hasn't made a rescue.  This was never put there by a card, so it must either be an "attribute" that the card simply has, or is a "state of being" (but since "state of being" gets reset, it must be an "attribute," which seems to be something that can't be reset by traditional resetting means).  Thus, the "attribute" that Son of God has not rescued still remains in the discard, as well as the draw pile once it is shuffled in.  Since this "attribute" idea isn't reset, something different must have to happen to change the "attribute."  As far as I can tell, the "attribute" would only change if Son of God rescues.

Therefore, I think that "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute," while simply "discarded" is a "state of being."  A card that was "discarded by an opponent" is in the discard, giving it the state of "discarded," but I'd argue that since Goods Recovered still sees it as "discarded by an opponent," which carries more information than simply a "state of being," the "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute."  Thus, like above, a time that the "attribute" ends or changes must be determined, and I don't think that it happens when the player himself discards the card.  I would think that the card has now been both "discarded by an opponent," as well as "discarded by owner."  I see nothing that resets/reverts the attribute."

I realize that most of you think the idea is ridiculous, and I will even admit it is pretty cheesy, but it is the only way I can figure that Angel at the Tomb works.

It makes no sense to invent a situation where this card magically keeps this condition forever when we don't even try to treat any other cards the same way.

I agree, but since Angel at the Tomb seems to set a precedent for such a condition, it seems to be both acceptable and necessary.

Maybe healing cards.  It seems like they can target characters discarded because they have the attribute of "being discarded," even after they have hit the discard and apparently been reset.

Because the reset doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they are in the discard pile.  That's where they are, they were put there this turn.  Healing specifically targets them.  Do you get to back and heal a character that's in your draw pile because he had been discarded and then Charioted back in?  Common sense says no.

Therefore, I think that "discarded by an opponent" is an "attribute," while simply "discarded" is a "state of being."

Why can't it just be a condition explaining why it's in the discard pile?  We are WAY overthinking the plumbing here.  Everybody's working a lot harder creating new ways to explain how this can work and what kind of terms should be used and how to track states and attributes and all this stuff.  Just do what the card says.  If it's not in your discard pile, it's not "discarded" any more.  If you discarded it by game rule after playing it, it wasn't discarded by your opponent at all, it was discarded by you.  An ounce of common sense in this scenario seems to be worth about 25 pounds of terminology.