Author Topic: Rescue Attempt Determination in T2 (Spy + Sword) (Read 2185 times)

Captain Kirk · « **on:** February 28, 2013, 11:13:40 AM »

This thread is related to my Shroud thread but different enough that I believed it merited a new thread.

Can we iron out exactly how declaration of battle intent in T2 works? Some of the following questions I believe I know the answers to but I am fuzzy on others.

Battle Phase Timing thread that provides some insight but leaves things unanswered
Ruling that Spy + Sword works

1. Do I declare that I am making a RA (and state for which soul) or a BC before pushing a hero in battle?
2. Do I push a hero in battle and then declare?
3. Am I forced to always choose to "RA" if there is a Lost Soul in play?
4. Am I forced to always choose to "RA" if there is a Lost Soul that I have access to in play?
5. Can I choose to "RA" for a soul I have no access to? (Either initially or I know I won't have access even after resolving SAs)

If 5 is "Yes," then what happens if I declare a RA with Spy + converted Sword (k) for the Female LS and then withdraw? Was the battle ever truly a RA that was able to fail (and trigger Sword)?

Quote from: 10th Anniversary Rulebook

Rescuer’s Choice
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue. That is the only Lost Soul he is eligible to rescue. If that particular Lost Soul is taken out of play prior to the end of the battle (by Burial, Son of God or New Jerusalem), then the rescuer will not rescue a Lost Soul even if his forces win the battle.

Quote from: REG

Rescue Attempt
A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

Quote from: REG

Successful Rescue Attempt
A successful Rescue Attempt occurs when the Hero(es) in battle are able to rescue a Lost Soul. If a player begins a rescue attempt, but no Lost Soul is rescued for any reason during Battle Resolution, then the rescue attempt has failed.

Spy - "Holder may look at one opponent's hand or cards face down in a site. Hero may then withdraw from battle unharmed or continue the battle."
Sword - "If rescue attempt fails, opponent must discard a hand without using it."

Thanks,
Kirk

Josh · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2013, 12:33:18 PM »

Quote from: REG

Rescue Attempt
A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

I can't answer all your questions, but I think your quote above from the REG (more specifically, the bolded part) answers one of them. If you attack with Spy and declare a LS you don't have access to, and then withdraw, at no point did you ever have access to a lost soul. Therefore, the battle was a Battle Challenge the whole time, and not a Rescue Attempt; so there can be no failed Rescue Attempt; and therefore Sword does not activate.

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** March 01, 2013, 12:41:29 PM »

with jmhartz.

STAMP · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2013, 02:03:44 PM »

I don't agree. Based on the definition of "Rescuer's Choice", it is a rescue attempt upon declaration, and becomes a battle challenge as soon as Spy is placed in battle, thereby setting a failed rescue attempt trigger.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2013, 02:37:12 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 01, 2013, 02:03:44 PM

I don't agree. Based on the definition of "Rescuer's Choice", it is a rescue attempt upon declaration, and becomes a battle challenge as soon as Spy is placed in battle, thereby setting a failed rescue attempt trigger.

I disagree with that idea because the definition of Rescue Attempt requires a soul be available, Rescuer's Choice or no. Rescuer's Choice states "That is the only Lost Soul he is eligible to rescue." That doesn't mean that it is an RA, just that you must declare the only soul you could possibly rescue before the battle.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2013, 04:15:40 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on February 28, 2013, 11:13:40 AM

Quote from: 10th Anniversary Rulebook
Rescuer’s Choice
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote from: REG
Rescue Attempt
A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle.

I think that this might be where some of the problem comes from. On the one hand we are saying that a RA is determined at the point a hero enters battle. But on the other hand we are saying that rescuer's choice happens BEFORE the hero enters battle and yet it is still called a rescue attempt.

STAMP · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2013, 04:32:55 PM »

Oh, there's no problem. It's more a shell game trying to remember which interpretation is currently active.

At different times, all guys' sabers were considered dull or sharp based on the "Rescuer's Choice" ruling-du-jour.

I can say this for a fact, if I ever attend Nats the host better dedicate a permanent judge for my table.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2013, 06:40:07 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 01, 2013, 04:15:40 PM

Quote from: Captain Kirk on February 28, 2013, 11:13:40 AM
Quote from: 10th Anniversary Rulebook
Rescuer’s Choice
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote from: REG
Rescue Attempt
A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle.
I think that this might be where some of the problem comes from. On the one hand we are saying that a RA is determined at the point a hero enters battle. But on the other hand we are saying that rescuer's choice happens BEFORE the hero enters battle and yet it is still called a rescue attempt.

Prof, I think we can throw out that portion of the quote from the rulebook because it has been definitively ruled that the "Before a player begins a battle" is not really a requirement. I remember asking (way back in the mists of time when I first started playing) what happens if my opponent does not make any soul declaration at all, and I was told that it was not in the spirit of the game to punish a player for simply forgetting to mention which soul he was rescuing. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone being denied a lost soul because they forgot to declare which lost soul they were attempting to rescue prior to or at the start of battle?

The corrected definition in the rulebook section should start, "At any time upon being asked by his opponent which Lost Soul he is attempting to rescue, the rescuer must declare said soul,"

I do hope this is corrected in the new starter rulebook. As a newer player it was somewhat disconcerting to me to find out that any rule in the rulebook--no matter how unambiguous--could be overridden by appealing to the "spirit of the game."

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #8 on:** March 04, 2013, 08:18:29 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 04, 2013, 06:40:07 AM

Prof, I think we can throw out that portion of the quote from the rulebook because it has been definitively ruled that the "Before a player begins a battle" is not really a requirement. I remember asking (way back in the mists of time when I first started playing) what happens if my opponent does not make any soul declaration at all, and I was told that it was not in the spirit of the game to punish a player for simply forgetting to mention which soul he was rescuing. Seriously, have you ever heard of anyone being denied a lost soul because they forgot to declare which lost soul they were attempting to rescue prior to or at the start of battle?

That is a good point. I've never heard of anyone denying a LS on these grounds. I see that you also asked about this in the other Burial Shroud thread and I'll look forward to hearing how others respond to that question.

If you're right that you actually declare which LS you are going for AFTER the hero enters battle, then I would feel more strongly that you could NOT put a hero in battle who had access to take a LS (which would seem to be a rescue attempt) and then choose a LS that you did NOT have access to (which would seem to make it a battle challenge).

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #9 on:** March 04, 2013, 11:21:25 AM »

Rescuer’s Choice
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.

This is the rule. You MUST. If the player forgets, it is understood that he chose a soul.

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** March 04, 2013, 11:53:16 AM »

What if we just got rid of Rescuer's Choice in T2?

Based on the number of time-out games in T2 MP at the T2 Only, that would solve a few different problems...

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2013, 12:24:27 PM »

people would play less burial

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2013, 12:27:42 PM »

I don't see that being a problem

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2013, 12:37:35 PM »

I think that would be one of the simplest options to resolve various scenarios that have been recently in question. However, this would constitute a dramatic shift in strategy as Hur, Seeker, Woman at the Well, Hopper, and other cards would allow for RAs to begin mid-attack.

Additionally, the following defensive cards would have less value in T2:
- Burial
- Just a Hireling
- Hormah
- Demon Shuffler LS
- Nebushasban
- Creeping Deceiver
- Threatened Lives
- Land Purchase
+others

Is this really what we want?

Kirk

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2013, 05:11:22 PM »

Another option would be to implement the way things typically play out in a casual game (from my experience).

I place a Hero into the field of battle.

I resolve all Hero abilities.

I choose a LS that I am rescuing for, HOWEVER, I can only choose a LS that was IN PLAY prior to the Hero entering battle. Any LS put in play as a result of Hero abilities (W@W, Hur, drawn Hopper, etc) are restricted from being chosen. If there aren't LS available then it is a battle challenge and the opponent may decline. If a LS is available, it is a rescue attempt.

I think that's what ends up happening most of the time.

Just brainstorming here so not sure if this would create other problems.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2013, 08:11:19 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 04, 2013, 05:11:22 PM

I think that's what ends up happening most of the time.

Naw. What ends up happening most of the time is that you go through the entire battle and when it is clear that the rescuers have defeated the blockers (with the exception of dominant play) the defender asks, "What soul where you going after?"

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2013, 08:23:12 PM »

That tends to happen quite a bit too

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #17 on:** March 13, 2013, 09:24:31 PM »

I need help understanding what happens with dynamic RAs - meaning RAs turning to BCs and vice versa.

What happens mid-way through a rescue attempt if the battle ceases to be a rescue attempt (meaning it switches to a BC because of lack of access) and then you play a card that needs to be used during a RA? Or if you play a card that then makes it a RA again - does it become a RA again?

An offensive example of both of these conditions would be attacking with Jair for the */4 and playing Deb's Directive to band in your opponent's Miram who is provisioned. Provisions stipulates it chooses the blocker for a RA. Does Provisions allow CtB in this example? And with Miriam having access to the */4 does it become a RA again?

A defensive example would be the Site Guard LS that is on a gold site with a NT only LS and an EC is face down on the site. Your opponent attacks with Simeon + AutO and switches for Moses. Block with Lot's Wife + Stone to discard Simeon, meaning Moses does not have access to the LS. Can I still use the Site Guard LS to band in the EC so I can get my numbers higher?

Provisions - "...may choose the EC his opponent uses to block Hero's next rescue attempt.""
Site Guard LS - "When you place this card in a Site, you may put an Evil Character face down from hand, The Darkness or Tartaros on that Site. During a rescue attempt at that Site, you may add that Character to battle."

Kirk

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** March 15, 2013, 11:35:35 PM »

Kirk, you're over thinking this and making it complicated. I tend to do that sometimes too.

If the ability is dependent on it being an RA when it activates, then is it an RA at that exact moment? If yes, then the ability completes. If no, then it doesn't.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2013, 08:53:34 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 15, 2013, 11:35:35 PM

Kirk, you're over thinking this and making it complicated. I tend to do that sometimes too.

If the ability is dependent on it being an RA when it activates, then is it an RA at that exact moment? If yes, then the ability completes. If no, then it doesn't.

Thanks Gabe. If you don't mind me reading between the lines in your response, I believe your answer addresses my 2nd question as follows. (correct me if I am misreading)

Quote

Or if you play a card that then makes it a RA again - does it become a RA again?

Yes.

Kirk

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** March 16, 2013, 09:36:11 AM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on March 16, 2013, 08:53:34 AM

Quote
Or if you play a card that then makes it a RA again - does it become a RA again?

Yes.

Correct.

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Author Topic: Rescue Attempt Determination in T2 (Spy + Sword) (Read 2185 times)