Author Topic: Regular Initiative V.S. Special Initiative (Read 2504 times)

Jmbeers · « **on:** June 11, 2012, 09:05:29 PM »

Which type would it be and Why?

1: A blocker is facing 3 Heros and causes 2 to leave the battle. This causes the rescuer to be in a losing condition by numbers.

2: A blocker is facing 3 Heros and cause 1 to leave the battle. This cause it to be the blockers Initiative by numbers. The blocker then discards Unholy Writ. This now now causes the rescuer to be in a losing condition by numbers.

3: a blocker exchanges a hero in battle with another hero resulting in a stalemate by numbers.

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2012, 09:35:31 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on June 11, 2012, 09:05:29 PM

Which type would it be and Why?

1: A blocker is facing 3 Heros and causes 2 to leave the battle. This causes the rescuer to be in a losing condition by numbers.
Special initiative, as it is a special ability causing a losing condition. You'd only be able to target that ability, though.

2: A blocker is facing 3 Heros and cause 1 to leave the battle. This cause it to be the blockers Initiative by numbers.
Regular initiative, no losing condition.
The blocker then discards Unholy Writ. This now now causes the rescuer to be in a losing condition by numbers.
Special initiative, but there's nothing you can do with good cards to stop Writ in a special initiative, and since you must target the effect that granted special initiative, there's nothing you can do. I don't even believe you can do anything unless regular initiative passes to you, because the special could only target Writ, not the other ability that caused removal.

3: a blocker exchanges a hero in battle with another hero resulting in a stalemate by numbers.
Regular initiative. Stalemates do not result in special initiative, and Mutual By Numbers would also not cause special initiative. Only Mutual Removal could cause that. But this one I could be wrong about (Mutual by Numbers), I'd like someone to confirm.

megamanlan · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:39:03 PM »

1. Would be regular, SI only comes from you losing the battle via Special effect, you are losing by the numbers. Now I could play a card to negate the card that D/C'd 2 of my Characters, if I needed too.

2. SI but like Redoubter said, nothing can hit Writ currently (besides negating it before its activated) so that really can't happen.

3. Normal Inish, you aren't losing the battle via a Special effect.

I don't see that losing by a Special effect means I kill 2 of your heroes by effect, you have another one and he is losing by numbers now, it's if I would do something kicking all your Characters out of battle, (ex. Forgiveness of Joseph (FF2).

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2012, 07:15:34 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 12, 2012, 01:39:03 PM

1. Would be regular, SI only comes from you losing the battle via Special effect, you are losing by the numbers. Now I could play a card to negate the card that D/C'd 2 of my Characters, if I needed too.

...

I don't see that losing by a Special effect means I kill 2 of your heroes by effect, you have another one and he is losing by numbers now, it's if I would do something kicking all your Characters out of battle, (ex. Forgiveness of Joseph (FF2).

Disagree with you because the removal of characters is causing a losing condition, which leads to special initiative. Only when there is no losing condition (even by the numbers) is there no special initiative.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2012, 07:48:37 PM »

Redoubter is correct on all counts.

Foreign Sword and Joseph before Pharaoh from the new set can both target Writ, however I can't remember what our conclusion was on whether or not you can respond to Writ with them.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:05:44 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 12, 2012, 07:48:37 PM

Foreign Sword and Joseph before Pharaoh from the new set can both target Writ, however I can't remember what our conclusion was on whether or not you can respond to Writ with them.

When someone finds it, can it PLEASE be added to the FAQ or any stickied ruling thread at all?

Seriously, Invoking Terror and all its little friends come up WAY too often and no one can ever remember, and it's so hard to find it without the search feature.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:08:19 PM »

Yes, as soon as I find it, I will add it.

I found a couple of threads already, but of course, none are conclusive. I know how I would prefer to rule it, but I'm usually in the minority in these situations, so unfortunately I'm going to put you guys on hold until we figure it out.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:23:46 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on June 12, 2012, 08:08:19 PM

Yes, as soon as I find it, I will add it.

I found a couple of threads already, but of course, none are conclusive. I know how I would prefer to rule it, but I'm usually in the minority in these situations, so unfortunately I'm going to put you guys on hold until we figure it out.

That's the problem I'm finding. The ruling AFAIK is that the card must be an ITB and the target must have been in battle or it must be a "interrupt/negate last" to hit something no longer in play, and that means no targeted interrupt/negate works.

However, I have seen Elders post that cards 'stay in battle' while their effects are being resolved for special initiative, and this idea is supported by the rulings regarding Joseph in Prison (since it is obviously not RFG during your special initiative), and there is general confusion. I don't think anyone knows for sure, but it would definitely be nice to have a ruling.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:36:22 PM »

By the way, this is copied from the current FAQ as the current ruling:

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 03, 2012, 11:51:12 PM

Q11) How do Negates work in regards to cost/benefit abilities that include removing the targeting card while granting special initiative?

A11) This question is currently under some debate. However, the current official rule is that you can't target Artifacts ala Unholy Writ with any negate card after use. That you can use an Interrupt the Battle/Negate Last to target an enhancement not in battle, and that you cannot use a general negate for the same purpose.

Current Thread

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:40:37 PM »

ok so blessings and the like can't stop invoking terror etc??

Jmbeers · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2012, 09:07:26 PM »

Ok

2B: so it dosen't matter that the card used to affect the standing in battle dosen't have to be used in battle? So dose that mean you could not play CM on the remaining character. That is so lame haha.

2C: would it still be the rescuers Special initiative if the blocker played CM instead of discarding Writ meaning they could not discard Writ after the dom? (Also Lame haha)

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2012, 09:12:21 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on June 12, 2012, 09:07:26 PM

Ok

2B: so it dosen't matter that the card used to affect the standing in battle dosen't have to be used in battle? So dose that mean you could not play CM on the remaining character. That is so lame haha.

2C: would it still be the rescuers Special initiative if the blocker played CM instead of discarding Writ meaning they could not discard Writ after the dom? (Also Lame haha)

Yep and yep. If you didn't grant special initiative and immediately hit them with something that cannot be stopped by them (AotL, CM, Writ, Charms out of battle, etc.), then they never get the chance. If your situation resulted in a losing situation, special initiative is theirs and you can't activate those abilities right away unless they can't take advantage.

megamanlan · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:26:55 PM »

If you are losing by numbers and have Characters in battle, there is no special Initiative passed. Normal Initiative is passed because there is no losing condition by an effect.
Normal Inish is when you are losing by the numbers.
Special Inish is when you are losing by an effect.

I don't know why but I can't find Special Initiative on REG.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:30:33 PM »

Losing by the numbers is a losing condition -> an enhancement kicks out 2 people, leaving you with one who is losing by the numbers -> that special ability just caused a losing condition -> Thus special initiative.

That's how that particular situation plays out.

megamanlan · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2012, 11:39:57 PM »

Wouldn't you now just have Normal Inish anyway? My understanding of losing condition is I'm losing the battle by a card that is somehow ending the battle by doing something to my Character.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2012, 11:47:28 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on June 12, 2012, 11:39:57 PM

Wouldn't you now just have Normal Inish anyway? My understanding of losing condition is I'm losing the battle by a card that is somehow ending the battle by doing something to my Character.

It doesn't have to end the battle, just cause a losing condition. And it does matter quite a bit, because it doesn't allow things like a block with Herod the Great and an immediate CM or Writ to get rid of the last hero, regardless of who had the initiative by the numbers.

Causing a losing condition by the numbers as a result of a SA causing removal (by discard, capture, remove from game, shuffle, return, choose the rescuer, etc. etc.) still causes a losing condition by a removal. That results in special initiative, and you may attempt to stop that particular ability.

megamanlan · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2012, 11:52:34 PM »

*sigh* this is why I like my Mike better...

That's why I make sure to go w/ little guys and hit they're smallest guys with the Non-CBN stuff (Like Invoking) then CM the big guy. I guess that makes some sense, since then at least there are ways to stop it, even though I don't like it too much.

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2012, 10:15:58 AM »

I actually agree with mega, I have never, ever seen it played where an ability that doesn't remove the last character from battle grants special initiative. Choose the rescuer followed by Christian Martyr even if the new hero is losing by the numbers has been a valid play for as long as I've been playing Redemption, I used the Herod the Great+Writ/CM/etc. combo all the time the season after Disciples came out including at Minnesota Nats, etc.

If Redoubter/RDT are correct why, then, can I not interrupt/negate Gold Shield with my old brigade if I'm losing by the numbers to a character that just used it? I've always been told there's nothing I can do after GS even if I'm losing by the numbers.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2012, 10:36:12 AM »

Quote from: browarod on June 13, 2012, 10:15:58 AM

I actually agree with mega, I have never, ever seen it played where an ability that doesn't remove the last character from battle grants special initiative. Choose the rescuer followed by Christian Martyr even if the new hero is losing by the numbers has been a valid play for as long as I've been playing Redemption, I used the Herod the Great+Writ/CM/etc. combo all the time the season after Disciples came out including at Minnesota Nats, etc.

It has been played in this region with every host and judge I have ever played with, and RDT has also confirmed it to be the case. Is there an Elder that has ruled differently on this? Because I've never seen that to be the case.

Quote from: browarod on June 13, 2012, 10:15:58 AM

If Redoubter/RDT are correct why, then, can I not interrupt/negate Gold Shield with my old brigade if I'm losing by the numbers to a character that just used it? I've always been told there's nothing I can do after GS even if I'm losing by the numbers.

Did Gold Shield create a losing condition in your example? No. If I play an enhancement that grants me bigger numbers, that doesn't grant special initiative either, because there is no removal of characters resulting in a losing condition. Gold Shield may have a special ability, but that is not what leads to a losing condition. On the contrary, returning X heroes or choosing the rescuer and that resulting in a losing by numbers scenario creates a losing condition that wasn't there before.

That is why your example of Gold Shield is not applicable to this case.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2012, 11:31:23 AM »

This whole idea of "losing conditions" is entirely foreign to me. The term is not in the rulebook I have, it's not in the REG, so I have no idea where you guys are getting it from. As such, I can't really say anything else since I have no basis for your argument. The REG/rulebook speaks of initiative in terms of "normal" (you can play any enhancement in your hand) and "special" (when losing by removal you get to play an interrupt/negate). Nothing about "losing conditions" and whatnot.

Okay, so the Gold Shield example doesn't work. How about this: You come in with the TGT ladies band (not ignoring) and I block with Assyrian Survivor. If I play Slave Trade to capture one of your Heroes you're saying you would get special initiative to interrupt/negate that even though you still have 3 other Heroes in battle that are more than killing me by numbers? Because nowhere that I have played and no one I have played with has played like that (that I know of).

Drrek · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2012, 11:34:15 AM »

Quote from: browarod on June 13, 2012, 11:31:23 AM

This whole idea of "losing conditions" is entirely foreign to me. The term is not in the rulebook I have, it's not in the REG, so I have no idea where you guys are getting it from. As such, I can't really say anything else since I have no basis for your argument. The REG/rulebook speaks of initiative in terms of "normal" (you can play any enhancement in your hand) and "special" (when losing by removal you get to play an interrupt/negate). Nothing about "losing conditions" and whatnot.

Okay, so the Gold Shield example doesn't work. How about this: You come in with the TGT ladies band (not ignoring) and I block with Assyrian Survivor. If I play Slave Trade to capture one of your Heroes you're saying you would get special initiative to interrupt/negate that even though you still have 3 other Heroes in battle that are more than killing me by numbers? Because nowhere that I have played and no one I have played with has played like that (that I know of).

No you do not get special initiative because you are not losing.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2012, 11:54:04 AM »

Hrm, another example that didn't quite work out. Maybe I should just give up since it seems I can't think of anything useful right now. >_<

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2012, 05:59:07 PM »

Hey Guys,

We've made a rule change/clarification for this situation.

Please refer to this thread for more details.

Thanks,

John.

News:

Author Topic: Regular Initiative V.S. Special Initiative (Read 2504 times)

browarod

browarod

browarod