Author Topic: Regarding interrupting negation (Re-Opened: Elders, is this now ruled?) (Read 21881 times)

lp670sv · « **Reply #50 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:22:05 PM »

You are doing the same thing to hunger though, that is the issue here. Hunger can't just refire because the thing interrupting it has been interrupted until JIP completes and by the time it does hunger is no longer in the game and can't refire.

Korunks · « **Reply #51 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:25:19 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 24, 2012, 04:22:05 PM

You are doing the same thing to hunger though, that is the issue here. Hunger can't just refire because the thing interrupting it has been interrupted until JIP completes and by the time it does hunger is no longer in the game and can't refire.

But then it was never actually negated and does not need to refire, In redemption when something is "negated" (whether by negate or interrupt and remove, same thing) we treat it like the negated event never happened (ie indirect negation from negating a band). So If the card negating never techinaclly happened why do I need to reactivate?

lp670sv · « **Reply #52 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:29:34 PM »

because JiP has to 100% complete before the interrupting is truly undone, and by the time that happens hunger has been removed from the game and can't take place. Interrupting something that interrupts also interrupts the card the OG interrupt was interrupting. Its a stack.

Korunks · « **Reply #53 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:35:38 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on February 24, 2012, 04:29:34 PM

because JiP has to 100% complete before the interrupting is truly undone, and by the time that happens hunger has been removed from the game and can't take place. Interrupting something that interrupts also interrupts the card the OG interrupt was interrupting. Its a stack.

Not in this case beacuse Hunger is an instanteous ability and by definition not interrupted by JIP. JIP only interrupts ongoing abilities and the last card played(the negate). So JIP is not interrupting Hunger, but it is interrupting its negate.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #54 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:38:28 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 24, 2012, 04:13:11 PM

But seriouslly all I desire before I let this go is proof from the REG, elder, or rulebook that if an ability is negated, and the its negate is negated that it does indeed need to reactivate. Then I should be all set.

This is true, and has always been the case.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #55 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:38:46 PM »

I understand where you're coming from, but that's not how it works. You did not negate the negate, you interrupted it and removed both it and Wrath from the game. This effectively negates the negate, but it is not the same thing as an actual negate. It would almost be better to put it in terms of forcing it to fizzle rather than negating it, and the same action you used to fizzle the negate fizzled Wrath.

For example. I attack with a Judge and play Shibboleth. You respond with a Negate. I play Samuel's Edict to Negate the Negate and Discard the EC. Shibboleth works. However, if I attack with an Angel banded to a Judge and play Shibboleth, you negate it, and I respond with Swift Beings followed by Samson's Sacrifice, Shibboleth does not work. Do you see the difference?

Korunks · « **Reply #56 on:** February 24, 2012, 04:43:18 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 24, 2012, 04:38:28 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 24, 2012, 04:13:11 PM

But seriouslly all I desire before I let this go is proof from the REG, elder, or rulebook that if an ability is negated, and the its negate is negated that it does indeed need to reactivate. Then I should be all set.

This is true, and has always been the case.

Thank you, now can you explain how Wariiors Spear/ Spy works then? I have never actually understood that ruling.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 24, 2012, 04:38:46 PM

For example. I attack with a Judge and play Shibboleth. You respond with a Negate. I play Samuel's Edict to Negate the Negate and Discard the EC. Shibboleth works. However, if I attack with an Angel banded to a Judge and play Shibboleth, you negate it, and I respond with Swift Beings followed by Samson's Sacrifice, Shibboleth does not work. Do you see the difference?

But that seems inconsistent with Spy / Warriors Spear. Explain how that scenario is functionally different.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #57 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:16:58 PM »

There is zero negation involved at any point in the case of Spy and Warrior's Spear. Spear does not need to re-activate in battle because it was played once and nothing ever messed with it.

Korunks · « **Reply #58 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:06:55 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 24, 2012, 05:16:58 PM

There is zero negation involved at any point in the case of Spy and Warrior's Spear. Spear does not need to re-activate in battle because it was played once and nothing ever messed with it.

But there is no character there for the enhancement to activate on. Hero abilities come before weapon abilities and the character is not there for the enhancement to activate on. But the ruling was if the card entered battle and was not negated it triggers, regardless of it location, or if there is a character there for it to activate on. I am just trying to figure out why this seems to not be the case for defense's. If I have Otho with Naaman's chariots and block and use Otho's ability to blow up everything in battle, can I still draw 2 and play?

Emperor Otho (FF)

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Gray • Ability: 10 / 1 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: You may discard a N.T. evil Enhancement from hand to discard all cards in battle. • Identifiers: Male Human, Emperor (Rome), Royalty, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Josephus (NT) • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs (None)

Namaan’s Chariot and Horses (FF)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Gray • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a unique character, you may play the next Enhancement. • Play As: You may interrupt the battle and draw 2. If used by a unique character, you may play an enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: II Kings 5:9 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs (None)

Wings of Music · « **Reply #59 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:10:17 PM »

I would say no. But I can't think of a ruling to support that. Does anyone have the link to the Spy+Warriors spear ruling?

Korunks · « **Reply #60 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:58:01 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on February 24, 2012, 06:10:17 PM

I would say no. But I can't think of a ruling to support that. Does anyone have the link to the Spy+Warriors spear ruling?

The infamous Warrior's Spear / Spy ruling:

Quote from: Bryon on December 08, 2009, 03:26:21 PM

Spy + Warriors Spear "works," if by "works," you mean the discard happens.

Did the spear enter battle? yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

The discard happens AFTER the withdraw option. So, if you choose to withdraw, and then the discard makes a lost soul become available, you can't decide "oh, I mean Spy stays in battle."

Did chariots enter battle? yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

I can't interrupt because you can't interrupt your own ability removing you from battle, I couldn't play because there would be no EC, but I could draw 2.

Redoubter · « **Reply #61 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:05:14 PM »

Sick for a day and come back to this...I agree with table flipping

Alright, I have another what-if to ask you then:

Let's say that the hero in battle DID NOT have special initiative (let's say he was a beefcake). Well, everyone got discarded in territory. THEN he negates it, I interrupt the negate. What happens to those guys in territory?

This situation is actually no different than the one I started the thread with, but different visuals. It helps to show that Hunger already DID happen, it's instantaneous, and THEN other stuff happens. In the end, nothing ever negated it. It STILL happens, because it never STOPPED happening.

MY REQUEST:
If we still go in circles after this, can we please just ask the elders to help out and resolve this? I respect everyone posting and I think both 'sides' are looking at this going "

COME ON HOW CAN'T YOU SEE THIS?!

" and there is no reason for us to get at each other when we're obviously not coming to an agreement

browarod · « **Reply #62 on:** February 24, 2012, 07:27:31 PM »

The difference between Warrior's Spear and this, as well as the new thing Redoubter posted, is that Hunger is no longer in play when JiP resolves so it can't finish its effect. As to the Otho thing, I would say no you don't get to play because Chariot is out of play when it would get to resolve.

Korunks · « **Reply #63 on:** February 24, 2012, 10:06:19 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 24, 2012, 07:27:31 PM

The difference between Warrior's Spear and this, as well as the new thing Redoubter posted, is that Hunger is no longer in play when JiP resolves so it can't finish its effect. As to the Otho thing, I would say no you don't get to play because Chariot is out of play when it would get to resolve.

But back to the wording of the WS/Spy ruling it should work. Is there a rule that says otherwise?

browarod · « **Reply #64 on:** February 24, 2012, 11:35:22 PM »

What wording are you talking about? The distinction has nothing to do with what the cards say and everything to do with where they are located after the interceding ability completes.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #65 on:** February 25, 2012, 06:03:19 AM »

Warrior's Spear is still in a valid location for Enhancements to activate from, and the Hero it was played with is still in play. Removed from Game and Discard Pile are not valid locations for Enhancements to activate from, while territory is.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #66 on:** February 25, 2012, 09:56:27 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 25, 2012, 06:03:19 AM

Warrior's Spear is still in a valid location for Enhancements to activate from, and the Hero it was played with is still in play. Removed from Game and Discard Pile are not valid locations for Enhancements to activate from, while territory is.

I'm not sure that that is how it should work. While I understand the difference between territory and discard pile/removed from the game in this particular issue, I'm also not sure that enhancements should be able to activate from territory (beyond territory class, placed enhancements, set-aside, etc). Is there a REG quote (or other precedent) to back this up?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #67 on:** February 25, 2012, 10:01:21 AM »

High Places and Altar of Burnt Offering. "BUT THOSE ARE DUE TO AN SA BY DEFAULT YOU CAN ONLY PLAY CERTAIN KINDS OF ENHANCEMENTS IN TERRITORY!!!" Yes, and due to the fact that Spy+Warrior's Spear works, one of those circumstances must be weapons (which can be played in territory) that have pending activation from having been in battle.

I think you would agree with this example: guy with Horses blocks and draws. White character plays Words followed by Lion Dwelling with the Calf. Player 1 gets to keep the 2 drawn cards.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #68 on:** February 25, 2012, 10:05:39 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 25, 2012, 10:01:21 AM

High Places and Altar of Burnt Offering. "BUT THOSE ARE DUE TO AN SA BY DEFAULT YOU CAN ONLY PLAY CERTAIN KINDS OF ENHANCEMENTS IN TERRITORY!!!" Yes, and due to the fact that Spy+Warrior's Spear works, one of those circumstances must be weapons (which can be played in territory) that have pending activation from having been in battle.

That's not a precedent nor a REG quote. Clearly the Elders (or at least Bryon) have said it works, and I understand why that would be, however, I'm curious why it was ruled that way, because I don't agree with it.

Quote

I think you would agree with this example: guy with Horses blocks and draws. White character plays Words followed by Lion Dwelling with the Calf. Player 1 gets to keep the 2 drawn cards.

I'm not sure this example holds any weight. The whole reason I don't believe Spy + Warrior's Spear should work is because Spy's ability, when used, kicks him out of battle before Warrior's Spear can activate, and I don't believe that weapons (regardless of what the rules are right now) should be able to activate outside of battle.

Korunks · « **Reply #69 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:53:23 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 25, 2012, 10:05:39 AM

I'm not sure this example holds any weight. The whole reason I don't believe Spy + Warrior's Spear should work is because Spy's ability, when used, kicks him out of battle before Warrior's Spear can activate, and I don't believe that weapons (regardless of what the rules are right now) should be able to activate outside of battle.

I agree I don't think weapons should activate outside of battle.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #70 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:03:52 PM »

Precedent is not needed when there is a rule directly addressing the issue, only when there is currently no answer and we have to make educated guesses. Unless you're asking me to prove that there is, in fact, a rule that Warrior's Spear works off a withdrawn spy, there's no burden of proof on me.

Since Warrior's Spear does work, I am offering possible mechanisms for that. The most obvious one I can see is that Enhancements are able to activate off characters in territory, and that when Warrior's Spear entered battle it entered the que of played cards waiting to activate (just like a banding card that brings in multiple characters at once). Since it was never negated and the battle is still going, it merely activates when its turn comes since it has a valid character to activate off and is itself still in play.

Redoubter · « **Reply #71 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:30:18 PM »

*feels left out that he wasn't a part of the original ruling on Spy+WS*

Does anyone have an answer to my second scenario yet? What if there was no special initiative for a beefcake in battle, Hunger resolved, and THEN negate + JiP happen. How can it be argued in this case that all of the heroes are not discarded? And if it cannot, why would special initiative change the fact that Hunger has already activated and then was never negated?

browarod · « **Reply #72 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:03:48 PM »

Type of initiative, in this case, doesn't change anything. All that matters is JiP is both interrupting the negate and rfg'ing everything in battle, so Hunger never gets a chance to resolve.

Redoubter · « **Reply #73 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:05:16 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 25, 2012, 02:03:48 PM

Type of initiative, in this case, doesn't change anything. All that matters is JiP is both interrupting the negate and rfg'ing everything in battle, so Hunger never gets a chance to resolve.

And again, I go back to the fact that it does not interrupt Hunger, only the negate, and as an INSTANT ability, it still will have happened. It never has to 'reactivate'. The interrupt of JiP just goes back to before it was negated. Ability happens.

lp670sv · « **Reply #74 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:11:13 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 24, 2012, 04:38:28 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 24, 2012, 04:13:11 PM

But seriouslly all I desire before I let this go is proof from the REG, elder, or rulebook that if an ability is negated, and the its negate is negated that it does indeed need to reactivate. Then I should be all set.

This is true, and has always been the case.

News:

Author Topic: Regarding interrupting negation (Re-Opened: Elders, is this now ruled?) (Read 21881 times)

browarod

browarod

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

browarod