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That's how interrupts work outside of SI. During SI the removal ability is suspended by a game rule and doesn't actually complete until you play your interrupt in response. The card you play during SI becomes the "active card" and completes before the original removal ability ever gets a chance to, and since the card fully resolves before the removal is unsuspended, it doesn't matter what portion of the card the interrupt occurs in.

special initiative itself is not what is allowing for a player to keep a character in battle, the interrupt/negate portion of a card which may be played during this time is what does.

That's just incorrect unless I fundamentally understand SI. If SI didn't suspend the removal and keep your character in battle you would have nothing to play a normal interrupt enhancement on.

1. A removal card is played against you that would (Not does) remove your last character so SI is triggered
2. The card causing the removal is paused by a gamerule and never actually happens until after SI is over
3. You play a SI compliant card and the removal card gets unpaused but now since your card (The SI compliant one) began activating it finishes entirely before the original removal card truly happens

The suspend happens every time a situation involving SI occurs, and it happens before you play your interrupt not if you play your interrupt.

Quote from: kariusvega on November 01, 2016, 03:54:46 PM

special initiative itself is not what is allowing for a player to keep a character in battle, the interrupt/negate portion of a card which may be played during this time is what does.

That's just incorrect unless I fundamentally understand SI. If SI didn't suspend the removal and keep your character in battle you would have nothing to play a normal interrupt enhancement on.

1. A removal card is played against you that would (Not does) remove your last character so SI is triggered
2. The card causing the removal is paused by a gamerule and never actually happens until after SI is over
3. You play a SI compliant card and the removal card gets unpaused but now since your card (The SI compliant one) began activating it finishes entirely before the original removal card truly happens

The suspend happens every time a situation involving SI occurs, and it happens before you play your interrupt not if you play your interrupt.

by that definition you could simply play a discard card with no other abilities and it would work-

special initiative allows for a player to play a card which first interrupts or negates the removing ability..

No Gam's Speech doesn't work because it requires extra action from the player (activating it) since it's an ongoing activated ability. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the fact that placement is involved. Enhancements like Siegeworks which directly and without any further action from the player DO work during SI for the exact reasons I mentioned in my last post.

Edit: I noticed you double posted right after I made this. I'll include a second edit which replies to your second post after I read it. Don't make another post until then to prevent us getting unsynced.

well you first posted image of jealousy which i would rule for the same reason does not work during special initiative as gam's speech.. due to the placement occurring before the interruption of the removing ability

No Gam's Speech doesn't work because it requires extra action from the player (activating it) since it's an ongoing activated ability. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the fact that placement is involved. Enhancements like Siegeworks which directly and without any further action from the player DO work during SI for the exact reasons I mentioned in my last post.

Edit: I noticed you double posted right after I made this. I'll include a second edit which replies to your second post after I read it. Don't make another post until then to prevent us getting unsynced.

Edit2 (Response to your double post):

Quote from: kariusvega on November 01, 2016, 04:06:30 PM

special initiative allows for a player to play a card which first interrupts or negates the removing ability

Why are you adding that first in there when the REG says nothing of the kind?

because as i stated before without the interruption or negate portion occurring prior to the removing ability, the removing ability is allowed to resolve regardless of special initiative..

this is not a new argument and the definition of special initiative has been altered multiple times due to this same kind of confusion..

that's why i'm simply addressing more the way it will be ruled at a tournament rather than going in to technical details of a definition..


it's just like saying that you could play matyr or angel during si which apparently you used to be able to but that's not the intention and that won't work in a tournament

well if you are really just wondering about one card right now,

siegeworks, i would suggest asking several elders for their opinions on the card for a definite ruling.

i am simply saying from my own perspective for the same reason as gam's

placement happens prior to the negate, and therefore it does not sequentially interrupt or negate to place and negate.. the removing ability

see the difference?

by the way this is a completely different topic at this point but i am there with you. i have been on the side of the table asking 1 2 3 elders for a ruling so

same as gam's bro ask an elder and let me know

well i mean you just answered your own question so lol that's why i had the discussion and said maybe ask an elder if you are still wondering this is a completely different topic now

I don't want confirmation, I want whoever made that ruling to come to this thread so I can argue with them. 

I still hold that Gam Speech doesn't work for reasons that don't apply to cards like SW per my post above with the 4 steps for each one.

i know but the standing reason is negate/interrupt must happen before placement for the negate (for gams and siegeworks alike)

Placement is not a factor in Gam's not working. Gam's doesn't work because there is a gap allowing the removal ability to resolve in between playing Gam's and using it (Thereby disqualifying it from being played in SI). SW doesn't have this problem so regardless of the ruling on either one of them, they are completely separate individual rulings on completely different kinds of abilities. The fact they both happen to involve placement is meaningless.

Ok I'm going to start this over because whatever you're talking about now is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how cards resolve. I'm pretty sure we both know these things but I'm going to list this in detail to find where the disconnect is.

When a card is played, that card fully resolves before anything else can happen. Before a dominant can be played, a trigger can be activate, etc. Most cards abilities all activate at once right when the card is played and even if one card has multiple, separate abilities, they all happen consecutively and as unit are one "action". A commonly played example of an enhancement with two separate abilities that happen consecutively is Samuel's Edict. I'm pretty confident no one would try to say you have a chance to play dominant or activate an ability in between "Negate an evil card" and "Discard an evil character". Another example of this is banding in a character with a special ability. This results in two or more entire separate cards that all activate consecutively, without a chance for any player to do anything before all the abilities on the banded characters resolve, in addition to whatever extra abilities the band card may have.

Now we move on to the cards currently being discussed. Gam's Speech is a card with multiple abilities. However, unlike Sam's Edict or a band ability, these two abilities do not happen consecutively. When you play the card, the only thing that must happen before you can do something else like activate an ability or play a dominant is the placement of the card in territory. The other ability, the actual negate and discard portion, can be activated at any time by the owner, not immediately when the card is played. Because of this, in between the time that the card is placed and when the owner has the option to activate it, dominants can be played, triggers can occur, and other abilities can fully resolve in between the placement of Gam's Speech and the activation of its negate. This is what I have been referring to in past posts as a "gap". This gap is why it cannot be played during SI, as assuming it could be, it would be played and fully resolve without any interrupt taking place and the removal ability would complete.

Next with Siegeworks, we again have a card with multiple abilities. Unlike Gam's Speech, the multiple abilities on Siegeworks function identical to Sam's Edict or a band ability. For the ability to be fully resolved and for dominants to be played, triggers to activate, etc, the card must be placed on a site or fortress and that card negated. The negate is part of the resolution of Siegeworks. It is not a separate, optional trigger like Gam's Speech. Because of this, it can be played during SI, as by the time the card has fully resolved the removal ability has been negated. There is no "gap" in any part of Siegeworks that other cards can resolve in.

Again, one last time, placement has nothing to do with it. The part of G Speech that creates a gap is that half of the card is a separate, optional trigger and the gap occurs in between the card being played and the owner having the option to activate the second half.

I don't have any questions as my only original one was about Gam's Speech and that was figured out a page ago and I'm not sure what to say to you because it seems at this point like you are just operating under a misunderstanding of special abilities in general and I don't know where specifically your misconception is so I'm not sure how to help you. If an Elder could reply to this just to clarify about Siegeworks as I'm sure whichever side is wrong would greatly appreciate a good explanation.