Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Red Dragon does regain his immunity but it doesn't matter because he has already been discarded by the time Gam Speech can activate. The discard is CBN so the discard can't be undone. That's all the matters in this scenario. If somehow you got RD out of discard and back into that same battle RD's immunity would still work, but that's the only way Gam Speech affects anything here.

no, red dragon is discarded cbn and in the discard pile, cbn

Technically SI kicks in before the removal ability completes (As it does every time your last character is about to be removed from battle) but practically doesn't matter because any card you play during SI has to be able interrupt the removal. The reason I even bring this up is I wanted to mention Gam Speech can't be activated during SI since I see people try to do it sometimes.

Can be played from hand, can't be activated if already in territory. Even in this situation if you had it in hand though, you couldn't play it to restart the immunity during SI since a card played during SI has to specifically interrupt the removal ability, not just do something that saves your character in a roundabout way.

GS cannot be played from hand during SI.

You also cannot activate it during special initiative, but once SI completes and any other abilities complete, you can then activate it and bring your character back (as long as another ability does not interfere).

Pretty much everyone is saying the same thing about gams..

It can't be used during si (from hand or territory)but after being placed in territory- which is the only place it can be used from- it does negate last so in this case where the dc is cbn it can not negate last after si and before battle resolution to bring red Dragon back because the dc is cbn. It can still negate last! But it won't bring red Dragon back solely due to negating the negate portion of bravery this restoring immunity on an already dead Dragon

I understand what Josiah means about the immunity but it's kind of past the point of mattering if you negate protection of angels then martyr the lone hero gams won't bring them back same situation of cbn discard.. now if they played great image and you want to keep all of your other heroes alive and it wasn't cbn gams could restore that protection if they played a negate but the martyred cbn dc hero stays in dc pile

Sorry for the confusion, the only thing the "place in territory" matters for is that trying to play Gam's Speech from hand during SI doesn't do anything different than trying to use it from play during SI because of the "place in territory" aspect. It has nothing to do with why Gam's Speech can't be used in SI (which is because of the specific guidelines of SI).

Special Initiative

When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's activating special
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's activating special ability,
would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed,
they have Special Initiative.
When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to
activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with
their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will
interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule). The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability. If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.
This only occurs once per activation of an opponent's special ability. If a removing ability is
negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or interrupt effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing ability reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative.

SI allows a player to play a card. It does not allow a player to trigger an optional ability that is already active.

Gam's Speech has already been played and it is an optional ability.

There are only a couple scenarios where this makes an actual difference--one such example is Herod Agrippa II playing a "withdraw a Hero" enhancement. After the withdraw enh is played, SI happens (assuming its the only Hero in battle) and if the opponent cannot negate the withdraw enh, then HAII captures the Hero before the opponent has the opportunity to trigger Gam's Speech.

Special Initiative

Quote

When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's activating special
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's activating special ability,
would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed,
they have Special Initiative.
When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to
activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with
their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will
interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule). The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability. If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.
This only occurs once per activation of an opponent's special ability. If a removing ability is
negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or interrupt effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing ability reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative.

SI allows a player to play a card. It does not allow a player to trigger an optional ability that is already active.

Gam's Speech has already been played and it is an optional ability.

There are only a couple scenarios where this makes an actual difference--one such example is Herod Agrippa II playing a "withdraw a Hero" enhancement. After the withdraw enh is played, SI happens (assuming its the only Hero in battle) and if the opponent cannot negate the withdraw enh, then HAII captures the Hero before the opponent has the opportunity to trigger Gam's Speech.

this is exactly the difference i was referring to. in an interrupt scenario from hand there are suspended (almost like slow motion ongoing haha) abilities being interrupted during special initiative, while in a negate last scenario all abilities must complete before gam's may be triggered to negate last - not the same as an interrupt being played during si

oh sorry yeah the reason it doesn't work is because it doesn't interrupt or negate until placed.

place must happen before the rest can occur so if it is played from hand there is only a place occurring, not an interrupt which must happen immediately during si

correct. the placement occurs prior to the negate therefore it does not meet the requirements of si.

well see the thing is, if the placement doesn't occur, the negate never targets 'that card'

since the placement cannot happen without interruption, neither can the interruption/negate