Author Topic: Re: New Player and Negate!!! (Read 1403 times)

kariusvega · « **on:** April 19, 2016, 08:00:26 PM »

if Jephthah discards two gray ecs in a territory while you have an occupied Stronghold in the Desert, the evil characters are discarded, then the blocker plays mayhem to draw a King of Tyrus, are 2 cards discarded for Stronghold since the gray evil characters come back in to play? If Hezekiah's Signet Ring was active, would the discard evil characters be restricted from coming back to play after hitting the discard pile even though King of Tyrus negates the discard?

kram1138 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2016, 10:19:42 PM »

I couldn't say for sure, but I'll take a guess. I don't think it would count for stronghold. I don't think negating a card makes the opponent do an "opposite" ability. Like negating a return to hand ability wouldn't cause a character to be played again. It just undoes things that have happened. I think?

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2016, 10:48:53 PM »

I split this one off of the original post because it is more complex than the original thread, and deserved its own.

For reference, since not everyone has all of the abilities memorized:

Jephthah
Stronghold in the Desert
Mayhem
King of Tyrus
Hezekiah's Signet Ring

Okay, now we can begin. Here is what happens:

1. Jephthah enters battle, ability activates, and the rescuer discards the top card of their deck to discard both gray ECs in opponent's territory (we assume those are the only gray there for argument's sake).

2. Before block, defender plays Mayhem, to draw a new hand, and pulls KoT.

3. Defender blocks with KoT. Jephthah is now negated, which means he never actually happened; his ability is undone, so no 'searching' takes place (that is, HSR has no impact, because nothing is being done, it is being undone).

4. Stronghold activates on KoT blocking from hand, as we assume here no orange characters were already controlled by that player, so now that he has been "played" (put on the table and activated), the discard occurs.

5. Battle commences. There is no trigger off of the two gray ECs being in territory, because they are not "played." Playing a card involves putting it in play or putting it in battle to activate its effect. Neither of those things happened here, so Stronghold is not triggered. The discard was undone, it never happened, so they are where they 'always were' in this situation, if that makes sense.

browarod · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2016, 11:10:46 PM »

Fixing the game state after an ability is negated is never considered to be any kind of ability or action, it's simply ensuring all possible cards are in their previous locations/states. There is no implied search because no ability/action is being taken, rather the negated ability's effects are being un-taken.

EDIT: This was in reply to a comment that was deleted while I was typing this.

kariusvega · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2016, 06:00:05 AM »

I don't know how my comment was deleted because I didn't delete it but I just feel like almost the same thing is happening here between the heal and negate. Negate is making the discard ineffective. However, the evil characters still left play, went to dc pile, and would have to be searched the same way as heal has said to have a search aspect.. I'm just using this example to exemplify kind of the stretch that a heal has an implied search when typically I'm not even moving a heal target to my discard pile where in this case the evil characters actually were.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2016, 06:43:27 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 20, 2016, 06:00:05 AM

I don't know how my comment was deleted because I didn't delete it but I just feel like almost the same thing is happening here between the heal and negate. Negate is making the discard ineffective. However, the evil characters still left play, went to dc pile, and would have to be searched the same way as heal has said to have a search aspect.. I'm just using this example to exemplify kind of the stretch that a heal has an implied search when typically I'm not even moving a heal target to my discard pile where in this case the evil characters actually were.

Vega...we've been over this many, many times now, but you are still not "exposing any hole" in how Heal works.

Heal does not undo a discard, it restores a character to how it was; that character was still discarded in the interim. It specifically says in the definition that it targets the character to be healed; it is right there in the REG. In order to target in discard pile, it must search (by the definition of search).

Negate does undo a discard, like it never actually happened. It doesn't target any card that is affected in the cascade negate; negate only targets the ability that it is negating.

kariusvega · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2016, 07:17:59 AM »

Yeah man I mean I understand it all makes sense according to the reg I'm not questioning that I'm just saying in actuality the same thing is happening here. Ecs discarded. Sog, mayhem, kot to negate jephthah. Ecs left play, are under 2 cards, come back in to play due to the effect of his discard and the effect of kots negate making him ineffective to discard- which already occurred, from dc pile under two other cards. Heal and negate are both happening abilities.. they don't undo anything that already happened., they have an effect. Especially considering Stronghold is not negated and thereby made ineffective.

Like I said I know it all makes sense according to the reg and what I'm saying wouldn't obviously be ruled. However, that doesn't change the fact that these things are subject to change and that rules are and have constantly be clarified and revised through gained understandings. Just thought this would be another good example to show how these things are being ruled differently according to the reg when essentially they are happening abilities, not "unhappening" or moving back in time. Negate moves forward to make a used ability ineffective. My point with hsr is that the negate ability used, I know it's targeting the ability, requires that the ecs involved be targeted in the dc pile. By the way, I'm tarking in terms of programming here. Hypocrisy by game rule didn't target hand, but in fact it does. In a program hypocrisy would require opponents hand as a target and if protected there would actually have to be an exception to allow it to function. This is really what I'm referring to here. Really programming logic that doesn't exactly align with rulings said to be in line with the reg. If you programmed the game it basically wouldn't work with some of these rules.

Which is the whole reason why we discuss these things and have the boards! :-)

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2016, 08:31:40 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 20, 2016, 06:43:27 AM

Quote from: kariusvega on April 20, 2016, 06:00:05 AM
I don't know how my comment was deleted because I didn't delete it but I just feel like almost the same thing is happening here between the heal and negate. Negate is making the discard ineffective. However, the evil characters still left play, went to dc pile, and would have to be searched the same way as heal has said to have a search aspect.. I'm just using this example to exemplify kind of the stretch that a heal has an implied search when typically I'm not even moving a heal target to my discard pile where in this case the evil characters actually were.

Vega...we've been over this many, many times now, but you are still not "exposing any hole" in how Heal works.

Heal does not undo a discard, it restores a character to how it was; that character was still discarded in the interim. It specifically says in the definition that it targets the character to be healed; it is right there in the REG. In order to target in discard pile, it must search (by the definition of search).

Negate does undo a discard, like it never actually happened. It doesn't target any card that is affected in the cascade negate; negate only targets the ability that it is negating.

Why does heal not function on instead timing instead of allowing you to do it in the discard phrase. The concept of being able to heal in the discard phrase is insanely unthematic.

kariusvega · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2016, 09:11:02 AM »

I'm all for heal in dc phase and through clarification I understand how it's different than instead, I just don't see how Saul in the dc pile can now play a good enh to come back with placed enh outside of exception but it's based on similar logic that he can so :p it's like if heal and discard were ruled equally as abilities a tapped buried liner in discard phase to mayhem where opponent draws awake and grabs the discarded liner the liner would come back tapped but it doesn't by game rule I'm sure

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2016, 06:08:59 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 20, 2016, 07:17:59 AM

Yeah man I mean I understand it all makes sense according to the reg I'm not questioning that I'm just saying in actuality the same thing is happening here.

This is what I'm trying to get to though: the same thing is not happening here. In one case, there "never was" any discard; it was completely undone. In the other, the character was discarded, targeted in discard pile, and then restored by how Heal works (which, is its own ability, with its own definition, just like every other ability in the game).

They are simply not the same thing.

kariusvega · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2016, 06:50:13 PM »

My opponent rescues with Daniel Gabriel shuffles my deck. I block with Sapphira to negate Gabriel.

The negate is an attempt to make Gabriel's ability ineffective, but it effectively has shuffled my deck. What aspect of negate is reversing time here to the original deck order?

Negate is an ability, it does something with other things. All I'm saying is they left play, came back into play. They didn't never leave :p the game state was affected they did wind up in dc and had to come back in to play some way(implied search)

Eragon5 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2016, 09:30:27 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on April 20, 2016, 06:50:13 PM

My opponent rescues with Daniel Gabriel shuffles my deck. I block with Sapphira to negate Gabriel.

The negate is an attempt to make Gabriel's ability ineffective, but it effectively has shuffled my deck. What aspect of negate is reversing time here to the original deck order?

Negate is an ability, it does something with other things. All I'm saying is they left play, came back into play. They didn't never leave :p the game state was affected they did wind up in dc and had to come back in to play some way(implied search)

I understand what you mean with the Gabriel situation but there are some things that are simply not feasible or possible to get to when returning to a previous game state. Like a negated draw, no one can unsee the card or just simply forget what it was. So while a true negate would put your deck back in order (now I can gates KoT again yay!) no one can remember the deck order to a t (usually) and even if they did it is usually not time feasible to find every card and put it the way it was before.

Think of negate as a "this ability never actually happened" and as a result both players sometimes take game actions that normally might trigger certain abilities as you pointed out, but since that never happened (discard etc.) its treated more like a situation like: oops I bumped my peter into my discard pile while moving that soul to the land of redemption. No one going to trigger misic leader or something like that because peter was never discarded.
I dont know if Im making any sense at this point so Ill stop here.

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Author Topic: Re: New Player and Negate!!! (Read 1403 times)

kariusvega

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

kram1138

Re: Re: New Player and Negate!!!

Redoubter

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

browarod

Re: Re: New Player and Negate!!!

kariusvega

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

Redoubter

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

kariusvega

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

Red

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

kariusvega

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

Redoubter

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

kariusvega

Re: New Player and Negate!!!

Eragon5

Re: New Player and Negate!!!