Author Topic: Rain becomes dust/draw?  (Read 2372 times)

Offline Eragon5

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Rain becomes dust/draw?
« on: March 04, 2015, 10:50:24 AM »
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Does it still count as a draw ability if my opponent has Rain becomes dust (If opponent draws because of his special ability reveal the cards instead. Place lost souls in land of bondage and discard the rest). Essentially if I "drew" three cards (which were then discarded) and my opponent blocks with Foreign wives (protect foreign wives if opponent had drawn 5 or more cards this turn), would he gain protection, or because the cards were insteaded to discard/land of bondage, does it not count as a "draw" or "draw ability" in the case of something like Priests of Zeus (if opponent draws because of his special ability discard a card in his territory except a lost soul). A lot of strategies I can think of could be souped up if it still counts as a "draw" or "draw ability," however because of the "instead" in the cards special ability I'm guessing it doesn't count as a "draw" or "draw ability."
I hope this isn't confusing, and thanks in advance for all/any responses.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and all your strength.

Offline Knoxyouthpastor

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 11:06:57 AM »
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I believe this still does count as a draw ability. The "instead" is where the cards go. Instead of your hand, they go in discard pile.
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Offline Eragon5

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 11:15:59 AM »
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In that case I have a new deck I want to build. Heheheh.
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browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 11:32:40 AM »
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I would disagree. Rain Becomes Dust insteads the draw with a reveal/play/discard ability. So, for example, if I place Generous Widow into battle (All players discard two cards from hand and draw two cards. Cannot be negated.) and my opponent has Rain Becomes Dust active, Widow's ability is partially insteaded and becomes "All players discard two cards from hand, all opponents draw 2 cards, and you reveal the top 2 cards of deck, play the Lost Souls, and discard the rest. Cannot be negated."

I would not have drawn anything from Widow's ability and Foreign Wives or Priests of Zeus would not trigger.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 11:37:05 AM »
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No cards were drawn, as that was insteaded.  The act of drawing never occurred; instead, there was a reveal (followed by place and discard).

However, I am not so certain that the player did not "use a draw ability".  If a draw ability later gets negated, did the player still not use the ability, which is activating it to perform some action or trigger an event?  This requires definition, other thoughts?

Offline megamanlan

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 11:43:29 AM »
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Well, pulling from what I know from other games, they do say that if an ability activates, it is treated as "activated" such as in Yugioh, if you attempt to Destroy a "Crystal Beast" the Crystal Beasts do instead their placement but they are still counted as Destroyed. Same with cards that limit your Summoning in Yugioh, if you attempt to Summon a Monster, even if it's negated/insteaded or anything, they are still counted as an attempt to activate. I know Vanguard and Buddyfight are like that as well. So if you want to go with "a Draw Ability was activated but insteaded so the player did not complete the effect of drawing" that is how other games tend to define it. Take that as you will.
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2015, 12:10:53 PM »
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Posting Rules and Guidelines
4: Redemption is Redemption.  We understand that other games have different rules or ways of handling abilities or card types of similar names, but Redemption is not those games.  So, while it is perfectly acceptable to make suggestions to make the game better or more consistent based on other games, do not use the rules of other games to justify a position taken on current Redemption rules or rulings.

Rules for other games do not have a place in this current discussion, only the rules of Redemption and precedents established as a result.  Please keep the thread on-topic and base reasoning on Redemption rules and other rulings that may be related.

Offline megamanlan

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2015, 12:14:49 PM »
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Just giving an example of how it could be ruled in other games for how it's used elsewhere. Again as I said, take it as you will, as I don't remember that ever really be discussed under Redemption rulings as of current. (Admittedly it may have been discussed in a place that I hadn't seen before.)
They seem pretty lame as fighters maybe we should challenge them to a dance off or a redemption game

browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2015, 01:12:04 PM »
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In this case Foreign Wives and Priests of Zeus both specify "draws" or "cards drawn" which doesn't happen if RBD insteads it. So that part is definite.

I'm always happy to discuss hypotheticals, though! :D

It starts out as a draw ability (so cards that prevent a draw ability could prevent purple Peter, though not Generous Widow). If an ability is prevented it doesn't happen, so a card that triggers when opponent "uses a draw ability" would not trigger from a prevented draw. Negate is defined: "A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability." Negate also works as a prevent.

I could see it going either way, but I personally think that negating an ability should be the same has having prevented it, i.e.: it never actually happened. Thus, anything that would trigger (or did trigger) if opponent "used a draw ability" would not trigger (or would untrigger, via the currently rules of cascading negates). I know that's complicated but I feel that's the most consistent with current rules.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2015, 01:43:20 PM »
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I was going off of a misreading of the ability for Priest earlier, and yes you are correct that if it says "draws" then that does not occur when no cards were actually drawn.  I actually remembered it saying "uses a draw ability" for some reason, which would invite a discussion.

As such, these cards both have the same outcome, where they do not trigger if no cards were drawn, such as due to an instead.

Offline Eragon5

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2015, 01:53:41 PM »
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I apologize about that, I paraphrased his ability from memory which translated "when opponent draws because of their special ability" to "when opponent uses a draw ability." :P Sorry about the mixup. Thanks Browarod and Redoubter for clearing that up.
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browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2015, 02:09:12 PM »
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I was going off of a misreading of the ability for Priest earlier, and yes you are correct that if it says "draws" then that does not occur when no cards were actually drawn.  I actually remembered it saying "uses a draw ability" for some reason, which would invite a discussion.
I was going off Eragon's listing of the ability in the first post, I didn't remember exactly what it said myself, haha. I just checked TLG and it does in fact say "draws because of a special ability" so I'm confident we're right on the evaluation of Priest versus RBD.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2015, 03:17:40 PM »
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Personally to answer the hypothetical, I'd say they did use a draw ability they just didn't draw. If I play search on my prophet while my opponent has nazzy out, I still used a search ability even if it accomplished nothing.
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2015, 03:38:44 PM »
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Personally to answer the hypothetical, I'd say they did use a draw ability they just didn't draw. If I play search on my prophet while my opponent has nazzy out, I still used a search ability even if it accomplished nothing.
There's a difference between protection and prevention/negation, though. Search fizzles because it can't target the deck to search, it still fires. A prevented ability never fires in the first place, and since negate technically prevents that's why I think it should be treated similarly.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2015, 05:26:59 PM »
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I thought we were dealing with an instead from RBD not a negate...?

But regardless, let's forget that example anyway. I think what it comes down to is this:

When RBD insteads the draw it doesn't count as you having drawn, but you had to have used a draw ability otherwise RBD wouldn't have triggered. So you used a draw ability that didn't result in you drawing.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 05:29:26 PM by Praeceps »
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2015, 05:48:27 PM »
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Sorry for the confusion, I was referring back to my earlier post where I said I thought an instead worked like a prevent in regards to "used an ability" status. Protection is different than both.

Like I said, I can see it both ways, but I personally believe that since instead treats the ability as though it didn't happen (because the other ability happens instead), which is similar to a prevent or a negate, that the ability becomes the type of whatever happens instead rather than the type of whatever the card was originally intending to do.

I.e.: Purple Peter is a draw and a negate. If RBD is in play he becomes a reveal, play, discard, and a negate. It doesn't really make sense for him to also still be a draw ability since that never happened.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 07:33:28 PM »
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But he did use a draw ability even if, with RBD up, he isn't one. If he hadn't than RBD would never have fired.
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2015, 11:04:03 AM »
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So this isn't entirely a hypothetical question after all, in updating Phase 2 cards on the Wiki I noticed that Drunkenness has an identifier matching the phrasing we're looking for: "X = # of draw abilities used on opponent's cards this turn"

So the question becomes: I have RBD up and my opponent plays a draw ability. RBD insteads it and later in a battle I play Drunkenness. Does that draw ability count for Drunkenness' identifier?

I stand by my earlier opinion. My opponent may have played a draw ability but he used a reveal/play/discard ability. Therefore I don't think it would count toward the X on Drunkenness. I think this is the more confusing result, however, so if we want to rule that cards are always the ability they are printed with, even if insteaded, then I could live with that.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 11:07:49 AM by browarod »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 11:12:58 AM »
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When you activate a special ability on a card you have used that ability, even if another ability changes the result of the effect.

In the examples given, if RBD changed the draw to a reveal and play/discard, then you did not draw cards, but you did use a draw ability. You did not use a reveal/play/discard ability because RBD is not an ability you control, it's your opponents, so they used a reveal/play/discard ability.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 11:22:42 AM »
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Megamanlan has received a number of down votes for mentioning how another game handles this type of ruling. While the rules of another game do not necessarily dictate how we rule things in Redemption, I do appreciate the feedback on how other games function. There's no harm in hearing what other well established games are doing. We can learn from what they've done well.

Many of the Redemption players in our community enjoy other games (including myself). We want Redemption to be accessible to gamers of all kinds. When it comes to a gray area that could go either way, sometimes that might mean taking the side of what the larger gaming community is doing to help make the transition to Redemption easier.

In this instance what Yu-Gi-Oh! does has no bearing on how we play this out in Redemption, but I'd like to thank Megamanlan for his input.
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browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2015, 11:45:08 AM »
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When you activate a special ability on a card you have used that ability, even if another ability changes the result of the effect.

In the examples given, if RBD changed the draw to a reveal and play/discard, then you did not draw cards, but you did use a draw ability. You did not use a reveal/play/discard ability because RBD is not an ability you control, it's your opponents, so they used a reveal/play/discard ability.
Works for me, thanks for the confirmation Gabe! :)

So a draw ability insteaded by RBD would still count for Drunkenness, per the example above. Pretty devastating if you make the mistake of using a draw in that scenario, haha.

Gabe, what would happen if my opponent played a draw ability (RBD is not up) and I negate it, and then play Drunkenness; would that negated draw still count as having been "used"?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2015, 11:59:05 AM »
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Gabe, what would happen if my opponent played a draw ability (RBD is not up) and I negate it, and then play Drunkenness; would that negated draw still count as having been "used"?

Quote from: REG
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability.

My initial impression is that you've still used the ability, just lost the benefit of effect. If I'm able to negate your negate, I'm not choosing to use a draw ability again, but I am (re)gaining the effect of that ability. I'm open to correction on that if there's something I've overlooked.
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browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2015, 12:53:39 PM »
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Makes sense to me! Would a prevented ability also be considered "used" but without effect/benefit, or is that not even used at all since it never had a chance to activate?

Offline Gabe

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2015, 01:23:00 PM »
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Makes sense to me! Would a prevented ability also be considered "used" but without effect/benefit, or is that not even used at all since it never had a chance to activate?

Funny you should ask. I was thinking about your last question and realized the next logical question is "what if the ability is prevented". I wasn't at my computer to post it and you beat me to the punch. ;)

IIRC, a prevented instant ability will not activate later, even if the ability that prevents it is negated. With that in mind, I don't think you ever used the ability.
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browarod

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Re: Rain becomes dust/draw?
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2015, 01:57:05 PM »
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You know what they say about great minds. ;)

That's what I was thinking as well, hooray! Thanks for all the answers. :D

 


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