Author Topic: Rain Becomes Dust (Read 4818 times)

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #25 on:** February 25, 2012, 10:10:36 AM »

Regardless of the reasoning (which I'm not entirely sure I agree with), I like the way Jordan described the scenario, and I believe that that is how RBD should be played. It's much, much simpler.

lp670sv · « **Reply #26 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:12:01 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 24, 2012, 01:54:53 PM

Do you want to see lp in a Tebow Jersey or not?

I don't get it

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** February 25, 2012, 11:59:17 AM »

It seems even more complicated than the way I've always understood it. Having an ability that doesn't actually target anything sounds really weird, like we'd be intentionally designing an entire ability that works like HHI. There is no problem with the understanding of instead abilities targeting the card with the ability being insteaded, and it's no more complicated than "it just changes the result."

Professoralstad · « **Reply #28 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:57:36 PM »

But "instead" isn't an ability. It is a word that has a Redemption definition, much like "your", that might differ slightly from its English definition. It is defined in the section I posted. So the word instead doesn't need to target anything, it just specifies that an ability will target something. I guess I do find the idea that anytime something happens in the game described by the trigger ability of an instead card that the second ability of the card can target what it should to be simpler than essentially changing what abilities say. I also feel like the REG supports my position, and would need to be changed again in order to accomodate the other position.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #29 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:18:01 PM »

I think Instead, if it's not currently an ability, should become one, since that seems to simplify things considerably. In the same breath though, I think RBD should target the deck, not the draw, which also simplifies things, and rebalances it slightly.

browarod · « **Reply #30 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:20:18 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 25, 2012, 02:57:36 PM

I also feel like the REG supports my position, and would need to be changed again in order to accomodate the other position.

I think the REG supports both positions due to the different ways of reading "replace an effect with a different effect." You're thinking position replacement: that the instead card activates in place of the other ability. Pol is thinking literal replacement: that the instead card literally changes the ability of the other card.

Both seem like equally valid interpretations of the quoted passage, to me.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #31 on:** February 25, 2012, 05:45:45 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 25, 2012, 03:18:01 PM

I think Instead, if it's not currently an ability, should become one, since that seems to simplify things considerably. In the same breath though, I think RBD should target the deck, not the draw, which also simplifies things, and rebalances it slightly.

I don't see how making instead an ability would simplify anything.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #32 on:** February 26, 2012, 10:42:44 AM »

Because it functions as an ability. "Your" doesn't describe an action, "instead" does. Furthermore, most people see it as an ability, and I'm frankly surprised it's come up now that at least one of the elders doesn't see it as an ability since I've been describing the way it works as I understood it since last year with no objections.

SirNobody · « **Reply #33 on:** February 27, 2012, 09:03:10 PM »

Hey,

Professoralstad is right. Instead is not an ability, it's just a keyword. (All abilities are verbs, instead isn't a verb.) Normal triggered abilities respond to abilities being carried out, they don't kick in until the ability that triggered them completes. An instead triggered ability responds to abilities declaring their targets, and kicks in immediately before the ability that triggered them completes. Thus the ability that triggers the instead triggered ability is in progress when the instead ability is implemented. Rather than creating a new effect to be carried out, the instead triggered ability modifies the "in progress" ability that triggered it, or replaces the "in progress" ability that triggered it with something else.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #34 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:34:00 AM »

That is complicated as mess. Given that Prof A was open to the change and you're very prone to stating your opinion as if it were fact, I'd like to hear that this is actually something the elders at large have determined.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #35 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:10:21 PM »

Something we've determined.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #36 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:15:33 PM »

There are no words to express how deeply disappointed I am that that whole paragraph is what was determined to be the best, most simple way to describe "instead."

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #37 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:18:44 PM »

There are no words to express how deeply disappointed I am that you can't seem to get past Tim's long-winded manner of speaking to see that it's actually not that complicated.

'Instead' language on a card allows that card to modify the ability of a card before that card's ability completes.

That better?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #38 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:19:19 PM »

So...it is changing the SA?

Either Malay misunderstood what the Professor said and he does not agree with him, or he didn't mean what you thought he meant, or the ruling is still too confusing to be expressed succinctly. Which is it?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #39 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:30:18 PM »

Oh, he meant what I thought he meant, I just didn't restate it simply that well.

Redemption is a complicated game, we're going to have some complicated situations, Instead is one of them.

My best understanding of 'Instead', which I think is similar to Tim and Jordan, and plays out all the scenario's the same is that Instead is a modifier for Triggered Abilities that allows them to insert themselves before the ability that triggered them completes.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #40 on:** February 28, 2012, 07:38:52 PM »

Ok, but that still doesn't answer the question of whether an insteaded ability is originating from the insteading or the original card (the easier question) or how protection works with it. Prof's declaration that RBD doesn't do anything with Simon active doesn't make much sense.

Also, I don't believe there is a consensus of you are relying on your understanding, and what it is you believe others' understandings to be. If you've reached an agreement, why are you still only a certain as having a best understanding that is similar to others'?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #41 on:** February 28, 2012, 08:49:41 PM »

So abilities that have instead still default to in play?

lp670sv · « **Reply #42 on:** February 28, 2012, 09:43:45 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 28, 2012, 08:49:41 PM

So abilities that have instead still default to in play?

Welp.

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Author Topic: Rain Becomes Dust (Read 4818 times)

Chronic Apathy

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lp670sv

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Minister Polarius

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Professoralstad

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Chronic Apathy

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browarod

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Professoralstad

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Minister Polarius

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SirNobody

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Minister Polarius

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Red Dragon Thorn

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Minister Polarius

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Red Dragon Thorn

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Minister Polarius

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Red Dragon Thorn

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Minister Polarius

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SomeKittens

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lp670sv

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