Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: STAMP on December 28, 2009, 11:30:55 PM

You cannot insert any abilities during the pause.

Are you saying that the EC's SA does not activate when he enters battle until after the "paused" Ambush ability completes? I was definitely not aware of that ruling. I'm pretty sure there are other situations where an EC's SA not activating until triggers complete (paused or otherwise) have been ruled differently.

If you could link me to said discussion threads, I would be appreciative. I'd like to understand the Ambush ruling more clearly so I don't goof up in a tournament.

Umm, no.  "during the pause" <> "end of pause"

But of course, when the end of the pause starts the EC SA kicks in and finally the last part of Ambush.  No where can another special ability, triggered or not, be inserted in that string.  So HT fires after hero is flipped and completes its SA.

Quote from: STAMP on December 29, 2009, 10:20:03 AM

But of course, when the end of the pause starts the EC SA kicks in and finally the last part of Ambush.  No where can another special ability, triggered or not, be inserted in that string.  So HT fires after hero is flipped and completes its SA.

I still need a link. "Pause" is not in the REG, so I need some kind of official statement from the PTB that I can read so I can get a better grasp of this ruling. Right now, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

The "pause" is a decision-making process by the opponent.  It's no different than the "pause" due to shuffling, or selecting, or any other action or decision made by a player.  As Sir Nobody has mentioned before, there really is no such thing as "simultaneous".  However, special abilities cannot insert themselves into another special ability regardless if there is another trigger.

Very good points, YMT.  I enjoy your questions because they get to the crux of the matter.  

I will do some searching but I'm not optimistic that I'll find the discussions I'm seeking.  In any case, Ambush has had many interesting and thought-provoking threads over the years.

I, too, initially felt that HT would not trigger in the example that started this thread.  But after banging the cobwebs out of my head and recalling some of the previous rulings regarding resolving special abilities and previous rulings on Ambush, I am confident that HT does trigger.  I think the part that got me at first was the fact that Ambush allows for another SA to be inserted (the EC SA).  We all know that you cannot insert another special ability into one that is resolving, but Ambush's SA overrides this, similar to how an SA can override a game rule.

Bottom line, a hero gains the ability from Ambush, which has two triggers, one that controls the order of abilities on the hero and the other that allows an EC's SA to be inserted in that order of abilities.  Here's how I see it:

1. Player triggers the first ability allowing a face-down hero to enter battle.
2. Site access is activated.
3. Player waits for opponent's decision (Ambush is still active and resolving).
4. Opponent decides to present an EC.  Ambush allows the EC's SA to resolve.
5. Ambush completes its SA when the hero is flipped.
6. Now the rest of the hero's SA is completed in the order of abilities in the rules.
7. Hero's SA is complete.  Hero is officially presented.

HT tries to trigger in step 1 but the hero is not green, actually triggers in step 5. if it is green but cannot resolve until step 7.


The special thing about Ambush is that it controls, or re-orders, the order of abilities.  We are used to the normal order where gained abilities come after the hero's SA, minus the banding and CTB.  But Ambush changes the order to start with the gained ability, then possible EC special abilities are added, followed by hero's special abilities.  Hope this helps!

Hey,

Quote from: STAMP on December 29, 2009, 11:48:43 AM

1. Player triggers the first ability allowing a face-down hero to enter battle.

HT triggers in step 1. but cannot resolve until step 7.

In step 1 the hero is face-down, therefore it's not green brigade, so how does it trigger HT?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Sorry.  Good catch.  Fixed.

I still do not understand....

Join the club.... 

I still do not understand....


does HT work with Ambush or not?

I believe within the framework of rules it does indeed work.   

That is, if you flip a green hero.   

Well if you band then HT doesn't work.