Author Topic: Questions about certain rules and cards #2 (Read 12112 times)

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #50 on:** January 10, 2014, 04:02:28 PM »

Questions mostly about set aside areas and ownership of cards.

1. If I decide to exchange an EC in an opponent's territory with Seven wicked spirits SA: you may interrupt all Fortresses and exchange this EC with any other EC in play or set-aside area
and want to target an EC that is in an opponent's set aside area by Molech worship (gains 1/1 for every time set a side) and EC has been set side for 3 turns ,

Where would the seven spirits end up? (stuck in set side area or in opponent's territory?) and does the EC that was set aside go back to face value?

2 .Are captured heroes ( from another player) considered permanently owning or have control of them?

3. If a player has 5 cards in his territory that did not originate from his deck and then they are shuffled or discarded do those cards go back to the deck or discard pile they originated from?

Even if some of the cards were Hopper LS and 2 hero characters converted by Ashpenaz?

Ashpenaz SA: Convert a captured human hero in your territory to a crimson EC, You control the character

4. If a hero already has gained Gathering of angels (may band to any hero until discarded) and then gets set a side again , do they reset to face value because they are taken out of play?

Praeceps · « **Reply #51 on:** January 10, 2014, 04:13:29 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 10, 2014, 04:02:28 PM

Questions mostly about set aside areas and ownership of cards.

1. If I decide to exchange an EC in an opponent's territory with Seven wicked spirits SA: you may interrupt all Fortresses and exchange this EC with any other EC in play or set-aside area
and want to target an EC that is in an opponent's set aside area by Molech worship (gains 1/1 for every time set a side) and EC has been set side for 3 turns ,

Where would the seven spirits end up? (stuck in set side area or in opponent's territory?) and does the EC that was set aside go back to face value?
SWS would go to their set aside area and could be withdrawn at their next prep phase. I believe the EC SWS exchanged for would be increased by 3/3 because the gain isn't specified as being applied upon return.

2 .Are captured heroes ( from another player) considered permanently owning or have control of them?
Just control. Ownership belongs to the person who owns the card.

3. If a player has 5 cards in his territory that did not originate from his deck and then they are shuffled or discarded do those cards go back to the deck or discard pile they originated from?
Any card sent to draw or discard pile goes to its owner's pile regardless of where it was when the ability was played.

Even if some of the cards were Hopper LS and 2 hero characters converted by Ashpenaz?

Ashpenaz SA: Convert a captured human hero in your territory to a crimson EC, You control the character

4. If a hero already has gained Gathering of angels (may band to any hero until discarded) and then gets set a side again , do they reset to face value because they are taken out of play?
No. The ability stays until they are sent to hand, deck or discard in the case of "until discard" abilities. Simply being removed form play isn't a condition for the loss of ability unless specified.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #52 on:** January 10, 2014, 04:54:03 PM »

sorry for question #2 I meant to say permanently controlling

So do captured heroes from an opponent count as permanently controlling those characters?

As for #4

If a card states "until discarded" treat them as until this character is put in draw pile , discard pile or put back in hand?

I have probably forgot , but where in the REG or rules that it says cards reset to face value when they are in the discard pile , draw pile or put back in hand?

Redoubter · « **Reply #53 on:** January 10, 2014, 05:21:14 PM »

For the SWS exchange to set-aside question, I agree that they would be exchanged and that the original EC there would have the increase, but specifically because Molech Worship says it gains that 1/1 every upkeep, not upon return; essentially, it already had that 3/3.

Agree with Praeceps' post all-around.

On 'permanent' control and control: You "control" a card when it is on your side of the battle, in your territory/set-aside/LoR/etc, as well as those cards in your hand/deck/discard. Non-permanent control means that you are temporarily using it on your side of the battle, but it will revert to another player's control after that battle; everything else is permanent control (but not necessarily ownership, like Praeceps said).

So yes, you control captured characters.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 10, 2014, 04:54:03 PM

sorry for question #2 I meant to say permanently controlling

So do captured heroes from an opponent count as permanently controlling those characters?

As for #4

If a card states "until discarded" treat them as until this character is put in draw pile , discard pile or put back in hand?

I have probably forgot , but where in the REG or rules that it says cards reset to face value when they are in the discard pile , draw pile or put back in hand?

Yes, they have to go to one of those locations to reset. It is different than with cards that say "while in play", because if they just leave play (by going to set-aside, for example), they lose the ability; also different than "while in territory", because if they leave that territory (entering battle or swapping territories), they lose the ability.

On the rules, there are parts that mention it under return to hand, topdeck, and underdeck, but I can't find a hard and fast 'rule' in the REG. It is a rule, rest assured

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #54 on:** January 21, 2014, 09:12:22 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 07, 2014, 01:45:52 PM

5. if abilities that are completed in a prior phase are CBN , what about image of Jealousy being placed on a fortress? Is the reason why it may not be CBN is because the SA on it has not yet completed? or is it another reason?

Quote from: Redoubter on January 07, 2014, 01:59:27 PM

5. Good question. The only part that has completed is the Place ability, and that is CBN. The rest of the ability is ongoing and continuous, and it does not "complete" in a previous phase. So, you can negate Image's ongoing component in later phases, but you cannot negate the Place.

So if Image of jealousy, Holy Grail, Siege works (Foof) and Unholy writ have instant abilities (Like convert, negate and capture)

1.how can you tell if a SA (if it is not considered ongoing according the REG) on a card has a continuous nature to it or is not considered completed?

(Not including any SA on enhancements and characters that can only be played during the battle phase.)

Would a SA on a card have a continuous and not completed nature if the effect on it can last for more than 1 phase?

Redoubter · « **Reply #55 on:** January 21, 2014, 09:57:12 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 21, 2014, 09:12:22 PM

1.how can you tell if a SA (if it is not considered ongoing according the REG) on a card has a continuous nature to it or is not considered completed?

Well, in the REG, you will find abilities listed by whether they are ongoing or instant. But really, it boils down to this:

"Has the ability done something that it is no longer doing?" If the answer is yes, then it is instant. If the answer is no, then it is ongoing.

So, Image of Jealousy has two parts, one of which places it on a card, and the other part negates that card. You can see in the REG that the first is instant and the other ongoing, but you can also ask the question above.

When it is played, the card places itself on another card. So, once that is done, does it keep on doing that thing? No, because it is already placed, it doesn't keep placing itself, it's already there. Therefore, that component is instant.

Now, once played, the card negates another card. So, after played, does it keep doing that part? Yes, because that negate will continue and continue until Image leaves play or is otherwise negated. Therefore, that component is ongoing.

There are some tricky cases; for example, once he has been "triggered," Simon the Zealot's protection is CBN in a following phase, even though protection is ongoing. The reason for this is that characters only activate when placed in battle, whereas almost every other kind of card is 'constantly activating' when it has an ongoing ability (this is why you can have a card 'wink out' during one phase if negated, but then turn back on in the next). So, by definition, a character's ability that is a "while in play" is always CBN starting in the phase after the phase in which it was activated, because it actually did complete.

Just remember that this is only really for characters that this exception to the rule exists, and only because of the way their abilities activate. For all other cards, just follow the REG and ask the question as above.

Praeceps · « **Reply #56 on:** January 22, 2014, 12:08:18 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 21, 2014, 09:57:12 PM

The reason for this is that characters only activate when placed in battle, whereas almost every other kind of card is 'constantly activating' when it has an ongoing ability (this is why you can have a card 'wink out' during one phase if negated, but then turn back on in the next).

Question about the bolded section.

If a LS, like say the shuffler or the NT only LS, are negated during the battle, say by Isaiah's call, do their abilities reactivate once the battle phase is over or would they need to hit deck/discard/hand before they would reactivate?

Redoubter · « **Reply #57 on:** January 22, 2014, 08:17:13 AM »

Quote from: Praeceps on January 22, 2014, 12:08:18 AM

If a LS, like say the shuffler or the NT only LS, are negated during the battle, say by Isaiah's call, do their abilities reactivate once the battle phase is over or would they need to hit deck/discard/hand before they would reactivate?

They reactivate, as LS are 'continually activating', for a lack of a better term, and the negate only lasts until the end of phase. The ongoing abilities turn back on once the negate is not affecting them any longer.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #58 on:** January 22, 2014, 12:31:57 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 22, 2014, 08:17:13 AM

and the negate only lasts until the end of phase.

Actually, the negate only lasts while Isaiah is in battle, based on the wording of Isaiah's Call.

Redoubter · « **Reply #59 on:** January 22, 2014, 04:47:46 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 22, 2014, 12:31:57 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on January 22, 2014, 08:17:13 AM
and the negate only lasts until the end of phase.

Actually, the negate only lasts while Isaiah is in battle, based on the wording of Isaiah's Call.

Yes, you are correct, sorry for the slightly incorrect info everyone

In general, negates would last until the end of phase and the Lost Soul would reactivate the next phase. There, better

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #60 on:** January 23, 2014, 12:55:51 PM »

1. If any card that says " On or Upon Activation" like Covenant I am Holy (SA: Holder may discard a good card from hand to make an opponent discard an evil card from hand.)

Does this mean , right at the moment you activate the SA on the card (during prep phase), you must choose to use it or not at the very moment , and if you choose not to use it , you can not use it's SA until the next prep phase of the player who owns it?

2. For I am Holy and I am Grace (SA Upon activation you may discard a good card from hand to discard an evil enhancement in play.)

can you discard more than 1 good card in your hand to discard more than 1 evil card? is there a limit?

browarod · « **Reply #61 on:** January 23, 2014, 01:04:05 PM »

1. That is correct. You use it or lose it.

2. You can only use it once. The limit is due to the "on activation" aspect. It only triggers when activated so it can only be used that one time (until your next turn).

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #62 on:** January 24, 2014, 10:19:30 AM »

1. If a hero ignores an EC but the EC is immune to the Hero would the EC still get unlimited initiative , but when the battle ends (assuming the ignore was never negated) do they both go back and no LS is rescued?

2. What would happen if a hero and EC were both ignoring each other?

3. Can any card like Plague of frogs: Regardless of immunity return an EC in play to owner's draw pile.

Target an EC in battle that is either ignoring or protected (even if the protect or ignore is CBN) from the hero using the enhancement? or is this ability specific?

4. Also if a good enhancement states "Regardless of Protection discard an EC" or something similar , could it target an EC in battle that ignoring or immune to the hero who used it?

(thought of these 2 questions above because I was thinking about the nature of ignore and protect etc)

5. Heard something about if an EC has 2 brigades (like The Goat with Horn black /Orange) and a hero ignores one of them (Black) , the EC is ignored outright.
Is this still true? and if so is this because the EC is still of that brigade?

5.1 If that is the case , then could the EC play orange enhancements to affect hero normally?

6. In a 3 player game , if Player 1 played Falling Away Part of SA: Select any Redeemed Soul and return card to your LOB.
and targeted a Redeemed Soul that was never owned by Player 1 which LOB does the LS go to? Would the LS go back to whoever originally owned it?

browarod · « **Reply #63 on:** January 24, 2014, 10:38:53 AM »

1. If the EC was immune first, then the only portion of the ignore that would function is the immunity portion (since the EC is immune to the other parts). The battle would result in a mutual immunity situation with initiative passing based on who played the last card (since neither character is dying).

2. I believe that the first ignore would take precedence for the battle winning aspect of the battle, and the characters would be mutually immune to each other (much like #1).

3. Regardless of immunity does not work against protection (though regardless of protection does) and I don't believe it works against ignore either (since ignore is technically a separate ability from immune).

4. No. "Regardless of <something>" abilities only get around that <something>, not any other abilities. Protect, ignore, and immune are all separate and unique abilities (though portions of ignore resemble immune).

5. Yes that's true. It's because all brigades a card has are innately part of it and can't be separated. Goat with Horn is a black and orange evil character so if you ignore black you ignore Goat regardless of the fact that he's also orange.

5.1. No, cards played on ignored/immune characters are also covered under the ignore/immune regardless of what brigade they are.

6. Falling Away explicitly says that you place the card in your Land of Bondage. It doesn't matter who owns it or which Land of Redemption it was in, it always goes to your LoB. Cards can switch control very easily in Redemption and there's no restriction that cards in your territory must be owned by you.

Praeceps · « **Reply #64 on:** January 24, 2014, 02:48:34 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 24, 2014, 10:38:53 AM

3. Regardless of immunity does not work against protection (though regardless of protection does) and I don't believe it works against ignore either (since ignore is technically a separate ability from immune).

6. Falling Away explicitly says that you place the card in your Land of Bondage. It doesn't matter who owns it or which Land of Redemption it was in, it always goes to your LoB. Cards can switch control very easily in Redemption and there's no restriction that cards in your territory must be owned by you.

3. Other than the name of the ability is there any functional difference between being protected from something and being immune to something?

6. Only cards in your deck and discard have to be owned be you, yes?

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #65 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:01:04 PM »

What if a player has the tabernacle fortress and The bronze Laver artifact in it face up (which has a "Upon activation ability" and another artifact face up in their artifact pile.

1. Can you deactivate artifacts in a temple fortress? (if so do they stay in the fortress?)

2. By their next prep phase can they activate the SA on both artifacts?

3. If not , then does the player have to decide which one artifact he will use that turn and must put the other artifact face down they are not using for the turn?

browarod · « **Reply #66 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:09:03 PM »

1. Yes, you can deactivate artifacts in other locations as normal. Inactive (face-down) artifacts return to the artifact pile.

2. If you have locations other than the artifact pile that you can legally place artifacts, then you can have them all active at once, yes, even if more than one has an "on activation" ability.

3. <n/a>

Redoubter · « **Reply #67 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:14:20 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on January 24, 2014, 02:48:34 PM

3. Other than the name of the ability is there any functional difference between being protected from something and being immune to something?

Nope. Same thing. Someday, I'd like to see that change, but that's a personal preference

Quote from: Praeceps on January 24, 2014, 02:48:34 PM

6. Only cards in your deck and discard have to be owned be you, yes?

Cards go to their owner's deck or discard if returned or sent to one of those locations.

Agree with browarod's points.

browarod · « **Reply #68 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:38:11 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 24, 2014, 05:14:20 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on January 24, 2014, 02:48:34 PM
3. Other than the name of the ability is there any functional difference between being protected from something and being immune to something?
Nope. Same thing. Someday, I'd like to see that change, but that's a personal preference

Protect used to be different before they changed it with the Thad ruling. It didn't used to protect from numbers.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #69 on:** January 27, 2014, 02:22:27 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 24, 2014, 05:38:11 PM

sed to be different before they changed it with the Thad ruling. It didn't used to protect from numbers.

It did in some places

The "Thad ruling" you refer to wasn't so much of a change, it was more of a clarification on an issue that was being ruled differently by different hosts in different parts of the country.

browarod · « **Reply #70 on:** January 27, 2014, 02:35:42 PM »

I could have sworn that protect used to just be in relation to special abilities (and that the rules even specified that). I mean, otherwise what's the point of creating it if it's just the same as immune? lol

Professoralstad · « **Reply #71 on:** January 27, 2014, 02:55:50 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 27, 2014, 02:35:42 PM

I could have sworn that protect used to just be in relation to special abilities (and that the rules even specified that). I mean, otherwise what's the point of creating it if it's just the same as immune? lol

Protect hasn't applied to just SAs ever since Priests, when it was ruled that Crown of Thorns could result in a bunch of 1/0 Sadducees/Pharisees protected by HP Palace remaining in play. It was almost always used exclusively with special abilities (and the discard game rule) until Thad came out, as it made clear what it was protecting from (protect from capture, protect from discard, etc.).

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #72 on:** January 27, 2014, 03:48:23 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 27, 2014, 02:55:50 PM

Quote from: browarod on January 27, 2014, 02:35:42 PM
I could have sworn that protect used to just be in relation to special abilities (and that the rules even specified that). I mean, otherwise what's the point of creating it if it's just the same as immune? lol

Protect hasn't applied to just SAs ever since Priests, when it was ruled that Crown of Thorns could result in a bunch of 1/0 Sadducees/Pharisees protected by HP Palace remaining in play. It was almost always used exclusively with special abilities (and the discard game rule) until Thad came out, as it made clear what it was protecting from (protect from capture, protect from discard, etc.).

1. If that is the case , then is it true that Ram's horn (priests) part of it's SA says "discard this card" or Benjamin "otherwise discard Benjamin after battle and cards like Hunger , ignorance and Plagued with diseases (that would decrease a character to toughness 0) are considered "discard special abilities?"

browarod · « **Reply #73 on:** January 27, 2014, 04:41:01 PM »

Ram's Horn and Benjamin have discard abilities, yes. Hunger and other decrease abilities are NOT discard abilities, all they do is decrease. A character being discarded from having 0 or less toughness is a game rule not a special ability. The difference is that if something protects from "discard abilities" then it does NOT protect from the game rule and the character can still be discarded from 0 toughness. If something protects from "discard" (like High Priest's Palace) then it protects from special abilities AND game rules.

Praeceps · « **Reply #74 on:** January 28, 2014, 03:59:41 AM »

Quote from: browarod on January 27, 2014, 04:41:01 PM

Ram's Horn and Benjamin have discard abilities, yes. Hunger and other decrease abilities are NOT discard abilities, all they do is decrease. A character being discarded from having 0 or less toughness is a game rule not a special ability. The difference is that if something protects from "discard abilities" then it does NOT protect from the game rule and the character can still be discarded from 0 toughness. If something protects from "discard" (like High Priest's Palace) then it protects from special abilities AND game rules.

And from being discarded when losing by the numbers, i.e. the new Joseph

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Author Topic: Questions about certain rules and cards #2 (Read 12112 times)

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