Author Topic: Questions about certain rules and cards #2 (Read 12267 times)

Praeceps · « **Reply #25 on:** December 28, 2013, 03:33:18 PM »

I have a question. If you have 3 heroes in City of Refuge http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/City_of_Refuge_%28Pi%29 and Image of Jealousy is placed on it, can you get the heroes back while Image is placed?

Redoubter · « **Reply #26 on:** December 28, 2013, 04:32:10 PM »

I'm fairly certain you can, as the default rule is that you can add or remove characters from fortresses during prep phase, and there shouldn't be anything stopping you from removing while the fortress is negated. Good question, though.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 28, 2013, 04:43:50 PM »

Are these questions correct? if not please correct them thanks.

1.If 2 heroes were placed in Goshen (however many turns ago or in the same turn) and then Goshen got negated by image , could the heroes still removed or exchanged during prep phase?
and
1.1 if the 2 heroes were placed in Goshen during the draw phase and then the fortress got negated by image during that players battle phase they would return back to territory?

2.For some reason I just do not understand the word "prior in or to" , so if player A had holy grail and converted an EC during that player's discard phase the conversion officially becomes CBN when it is Player B's discard phase?

3. So mostly in general if any card that is in battle or has an ongoing effect (like a fortress or artifact , site etc unless it has a end time frame) was discarded but not negated their effects will usually only last until the end of the phase it was discarded in?

4. What if holder has Roman prison site SA: if you use a Roman solider or emperor to block a RA at this site you draw or reveal opponent's hand.
and holder blocks with Emperor Nero which says discard all Roman sites in play.
Would you still be able to use the SA on the site?

5. Is there somewhere that states that Instant abilities completed in prior phases/turns are CBN? or something similar?

Redoubter · « **Reply #28 on:** December 28, 2013, 05:10:38 PM »

1. I'm fairly certain this is yes, but remember that those with toughness 0 or less would be immediately discarded by game rule.

1.1 No, though it would have happened during prep phase, not draw phase.

2. Once a phase has passed, any completed ability from a prior phase is CBN. If I do something in battle, nothing can undo it during the following discard phase. If I do something during my own discard phase, you can't undo it once your draw phase starts, or any time after that.

3. Yes. By default, all ongoing abilities last until the end of the current phase. Specific cards may behave differently based on their ability, but that is default.

4. Character abilities must finish before they are considered to be in battle. By the time that Nero has blocked, he has discarded Roman Prison, and so he is not blocking a RA at that site.

5. There is a bit in the REG under End the Battle, though it should probably be spelled out more clearly as a general rule, agreed. It is intuitive, however, because if you were allowed to negate things in the past, this game would become just unplayable, and the results of battles could be undone after the fact. The part I mentioned earlier:

Quote from: REG 2.0

All end the battle abilities effectively have ”cannot be interrupted” status because the ability is used in the battle phase and causes the battle phase to end, and abilities can only be interrupted or negated during the phase in which they are used.

Praeceps · « **Reply #29 on:** December 28, 2013, 07:33:36 PM »

I think he's getting Phase and Turn slightly mixed up. Anything that is completed in one phase is CBN once the next phase begins. It doesn't wait until the coressponding phase in the next turm, but rather the very next phase.

Example: I use Holy Grail to convert one of your two crimson evil characters in my prep phase and then activate garden tomb with Peter in my territory. I then start a battle. You can no longer play DoN to negate the convert in order to block with your crimson evil character, because it is now the battle phase and the convert has become CBN.

AJ · « **Reply #30 on:** December 29, 2013, 01:03:03 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 28, 2013, 05:10:38 PM

1. I'm fairly certain this is yes, but remember that those with toughness 0 or less would be immediately discarded by game rule.

1.1 No, though it would have happened during prep phase, not draw phase.

2. Once a phase has passed, any completed ability from a prior phase is CBN. If I do something in battle, nothing can undo it during the following discard phase. If I do something during my own discard phase, you can't undo it once your draw phase starts, or any time after that.

3. Yes. By default, all ongoing abilities last until the end of the current phase. Specific cards may behave differently based on their ability, but that is default.

4. Character abilities must finish before they are considered to be in battle. By the time that Nero has blocked, he has discarded Roman Prison, and so he is not blocking a RA at that site.

5. There is a bit in the REG under End the Battle, though it should probably be spelled out more clearly as a general rule, agreed. It is intuitive, however, because if you were allowed to negate things in the past, this game would become just unplayable, and the results of battles could be undone after the fact. The part I mentioned earlier:
Quote from: REG 2.0
All end the battle abilities effectively have ”cannot be interrupted” status because the ability is used in the battle phase and causes the battle phase to end, and abilities can only be interrupted or negated during the phase in which they are used.

browarod · « **Reply #31 on:** December 29, 2013, 10:41:32 PM »

The Goshen question depends on which version you're referring to. The Promo version has a Holds identifier (and identifiers are CBN) so even with Image of Jealousy you could add/remove Heroes from there (though the instead would not function). For the Warriors and C deck versions, their whole ability to hold Heroes is the special ability so if it's negated then I would rule that the Heroes are stuck there and you can't add/remove any.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM »

1. Is a card considered "played " and in battle when the SA on it has completed?

2. To the present day of current redemption rules on dominants , (in rescuer's choice) after a hero has won a RA and battle resolution is over could you.

2.1 Still play burial to discard the LS that was chosen to rescue

2.2 play CM to discard the hero

2.3 or use Unholy writ to capture it or use unknown nation , Gates of Hell or Madness to add an EC to the battle?

2.4 or rescue your own LS with SoG?

So the hero does not rescue the LS?

3. Curse Unsuccessful SA: Negate the last good Enhancement played in battle (may be used once)

3.1 Does this mean you can only use the effect on it once and then it must be discarded?
or once every turn?

4. If a hero with 3/3 goes for RA and blocked by an EC with 1/1 and plays Hunger SA: decrease one opponents heroes by 6/6

4.1 Does the hero get special initiative to negate hunger or does hero not get SI and gets discarded because of game rule ( if a character has toughness /0 they get discarded )

5. Can the original SoG card successfully rescue LS (shut door) or would the LS be under decked before it can get a chance to rescue it?

Redoubter · « **Reply #33 on:** January 02, 2014, 08:33:20 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

1. Is a card considered "played " and in battle when the SA on it has completed?

Yes, in most cases that is when it is played.

Quote from: REG 2.0

A card is considered “played” if it meets these criteria:
 You play an enhancement by attempting to activate its special ability (or numbers
in battle)
 You play a character or multicolor site by putting it in your territory or your side
of the battle.
 You play any other card type by putting it face up on the playing surface from
hand, deck, or discard pile due to your special ability or game action, except
when you discard a card from hand.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

To the present day of current redemption rules on dominants , (in rescuer's choice) after a hero has won a RA and battle resolution is over could you.

I'm going to answer all of these at once. If a hero has 'won' a battle, or anyone has won the battle, that means it is in Battle Resolution. Nothing, not even dominants, can be played during Battle Resolution.

You go to Battle Resolution when there is an 'end the battle' effect or both players have finished playing cards and move to resolve the end of the battle. If everyone passes and you go to determining which characters are defeated, that is it for the battle phase. You cannot, for example, decide to "lose" with your Assyrian Survivor, resolve his defeat ability, and then play Christian Martyr / Burial / activate Unholy Writ / rescue with SoG. You must do those before deciding to be done with playing cards.

Note that if one side is defeated by removal due to special ability, you still have the option of playing cards and activating abilities before Battle Resolution. It is only when both players are finished doing so that Battle Resolution begins.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

3. Curse Unsuccessful SA: Negate the last good Enhancement played in battle (may be used once)

3.1 Does this mean you can only use the effect on it once and then it must be discarded?
or once every turn?

Once and then discarded. By default, when an artifact uses up the last use, it is discarded.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

4. If a hero with 3/3 goes for RA and blocked by an EC with 1/1 and plays Hunger SA: decrease one opponents heroes by 6/6

4.1 Does the hero get special initiative to negate hunger or does hero not get SI and gets discarded because of game rule ( if a character has toughness /0 they get discarded )

Yes, SI is granted. SI is granted whenever the last character on a side would be removed from battle as a result of a special ability, regardless of what game rule is triggered.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

5. Can the original SoG card successfully rescue LS (shut door) or would the LS be under decked before it can get a chance to rescue it?

The ability to underdeck cannot insert itself into SoG rescuing the soul. The soul is rescued by the current status quo (I believe).

However, it is an interesting situation, because if we follow similar rulings on cards like Assyrian Survivor and PG Panic Demon, it should be an ability that resolves regardless of where the card ends up. By those precedents, and the rules on this type of card, the ability cannot insert itself in another ability, but it resolves as a result of the trigger.

So, by rule, it should be rescued by SoG, and then if the player did not win (automatic state when the limit is reached), it should be pulled from Land of Redemption and placed under owner's deck, if the option is exercised.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

DJWeb · « **Reply #34 on:** January 02, 2014, 08:52:30 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 02, 2014, 08:33:20 PM

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 07:26:48 PM
3. Curse Unsuccessful SA: Negate the last good Enhancement played in battle (may be used once)

3.1 Does this mean you can only use the effect on it once and then it must be discarded?
or once every turn?

Once and then discarded. By default, when an artifact uses up the last use, it is discarded.

Then can you search that same artifact out of your discard pile and use it again? I always thought the "May be used once/twice" abilities were like Jepthah's, you can use them once/twice per game.

Example: If Pagan Priests searched back Captured Ark (that has been used twice) can it be used twice more?

Redoubter · « **Reply #35 on:** January 02, 2014, 08:56:20 PM »

Artifacts that have a use limit are discarded when they reach that limit, and could be used again once reset in hand, deck, or discard. Cards like Jephthah are specifically "X times per game", which are for all copies of the card used by that player.

If it does not specify that it can only be used a certain amount of times per game, then it by default is not limited to a certain number of times per game.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM »

1. Can you still rescue your own LS with SoG? or is there a rule that you can not rescue your own as of now?

2. If a single hero begins a RA and completes their SA (with rescuer's choice) and a blocker is not presented yet could you play CM to discard hero , burial to discard chosen LS in your Lob or use unholy writ to capture it?

3. If a hero tries to rescue a LS in the site Hormah SA: If your human EC is discarded you may place this site and its contents beneath owner's deck , and defeats the blocking human EC is the rescue successful or does the site under deck it self before the LS is rescued?

4. If hero Asaph SA: Good enhancements involving music CBN by evil cards plays enhancement card
Magnificat SA: Negate SA on characters set aside an EC in battle for 2 turns can the enhancement now be negated by an EC?

5. Just wondering why is the LS card (FBTN) named fight by the numbers? it only negates SA on Lost Soul cards?

Redoubter · « **Reply #37 on:** January 02, 2014, 11:03:14 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

1. Can you still rescue your own LS with SoG? or is there a rule that you can not rescue your own as of now?

The rule is now that you can only rescue from opponents. That was a change from the original rules recently, but it is the current rule.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

2. If a single hero begins a RA and completes their SA (with rescuer's choice) and a blocker is not presented yet could you play CM to discard hero , burial to discard chosen LS in your Lob or use unholy writ to capture it?

Yes, you can play dominants (both sides) before a blocker is presented.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

3. If a hero tries to rescue a LS in the site Hormah SA: If your human EC is discarded you may place this site and its contents beneath owner's deck , and defeats the blocking human EC is the rescue successful or does the site under deck it self before the LS is rescued?

If the ability goes off, it resolves before the soul is surrendered, at the moment of the discard by special ability, game rule, or numbers (as that is the trigger). If that means that there is no longer a soul that can be given, then the RA fails.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

4. If hero Asaph SA: Good enhancements involving music CBN by evil cards plays enhancement card
Magnificat SA: Negate SA on characters set aside an EC in battle for 2 turns can the enhancement now be negated by an EC?

No, any ability that grants "Cannot be..." status to other cards is itself CBN. As you can see, not doing that causes loops.

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

5. Just wondering why is the LS card (FBTN) named fight by the numbers? it only negates SA on Lost Soul cards?

FBTN is just a blanket term that has been used for that type of in-battle ability. When the soul was printed, it was an easy name to apply, even if the abilities don't match up.

Praeceps · « **Reply #38 on:** January 03, 2014, 12:13:59 AM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 02, 2014, 10:25:43 PM

5. Just wondering why is the LS card (FBTN) named fight by the numbers? it only negates SA on Lost Soul cards?

FBTN is just short-hand for "negate all abilities, battle is determined by the numbers." The LS doesn't cause a FBTN state in battle, but rather it refers to the first part, the "Negate all" ability.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 07, 2014, 01:45:52 PM »

1. So if any card that grants " CBP , CBI , CBN" to other cards are CBN themselves then , does the CBP Lost Soul can not have it's SA negated by FBTN Lost Soul? or the new SoG card?

2. In a 2 player game If 1 hero and 1 EC is in battle and then AotL is played to discard blocker can the opposing player play CM to discard hero to prevent the rescue? or by the time Aotl is finished completing it is already battle resolution?

3. It is possible for a player to activate an artifact (Like Wash Basin) SA: On activation reveal the bottom X cards of opponent's deck , they leave it face up during their 1st turn and then by their 2nd turn , can they place the Wash Basin card face down , and then face up to activate it's SA for their 2nd turn?

4. If you have Tables in your artifact pile and Altar of Incense in your (Pa) Solomon's temple , could you switch the two when it is your turn? and if so , would that action be considered activating an artifact? (as the diagram of a turn says activate an artifact once per turn during your prep phase)

5. if abilities that are completed in a prior phase are CBN , what about image of Jealousy being placed on a fortress? Is the reason why it may not be CBN is because the SA on it has not yet completed? or is it another reason?

6. If Simon the Zealot (7/4) with first strike enters battle and then is blocked by The Goat with horn (11/4) and has first strike and no player plays enhancements and it is battle resolution who would win the battle?

7.Would it be true if a SA on any card (like discard , capture , remove from game , protect etc) usually default to "in the field of play" unless it specifies to target a card that is in the set a side area , hand , draw or discard pile?.

7.1 Would artifact Lampy : SA Protect all cards not in battle from evil dominants. still protect cards in hands and LoR or is it default "in play " ?

Redoubter · « **Reply #40 on:** January 07, 2014, 01:59:27 PM »

1. Correct.

2. It can be played. Battle Resolution is only after all players have finished playing enhancements, activating abilities, and playing dominants (or an "end the battle" ability is played). If both players decide to go to resolution (they stop playing, and go to determining who wins by the numbers), then no dominants can be played.

3. Artifacts always reactivate during prep phase, while artifacts are being handled. So, at that point in your prep phase (whenever you do it), you can do the "on activation" ability. However, you cannot deactivate an artifact, play/activate another card (which could be stopped by the artifact, such as with Covenant with Death), and then reactivate that same artifact. Once you decide to deactivate the artifact, you have made that choice for the whole prep phase; you either 'activate' it then (as with Wash Basin) and do its ability, or you cannot reactivate it later if you did another ability in between.

4. Interesting question. I would rule that, since all artifacts essentially 'deactivate' during the artifact step for you to reactivate, that it would be legal to switch them. On reactivation, you would just have the Temple target a different a different artifact with its hold. Others may have a different interpretation, I do not know that this is explicit in the rules.

5. Good question. The only part that has completed is the Place ability, and that is CBN. The rest of the ability is ongoing and continuous, and it does not "complete" in a previous phase. So, you can negate Image's ongoing component in later phases, but you cannot negate the Place.

6. Both are discarded by mutual destruction. First strike only means you aren't discarded in mutual destruction if only one side has it; if both have it, mutual destruction occurs. Both are discarded, hero gets a soul (if applicable).

7. (Missed first time, started response before question added in edit) Almost all abilities default to play, yes. You can see what the default conditions are in the REG.

7.1 It only protects cards that are "not in battle", which has been defined (and does not include hands):

Quote from: REG 2.0

Several Redemption® cards contain special abilities that refer to cards that are “not in battle”. Cards "not in battle" are cards found in (1) territories, (2) set aside areas, and (3) Lands of Redemption.

Since it has a defined target, it does not default to "in play", but to those three locations instead.

EDIT: There is a debate on #6, which has been moved here.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:08:25 PM »

Questions mostly related to artifacts

I am Salvation: Negate all SA on LS cards May be used twice.

Burial Shroud SA: Holder may not make a RA or be attacked May be used twice.

1. Does the effect on the 2 artifacts mentioned above last for that one player's turn (whoever owns one of them) or one round?

2. If player A on their 1st turn activates an artifact I am Salvation (for the first time and uses it's effect) , leaves it face up on that turn.

Then on Player A's 2nd turn ( I am Salvation is still face up ) if they did not mention that they are using its effect for the 2nd time (during prep phase) and they go to the next phase (discard phase) could we assume that the effect of it must take place for the 2nd time because they did not choose to deactivate it?

3. If the effect on artifacts were used for the 2nd time does the artifact get discarded at the end of the turn , round or right on reactivation?

4. Is there a difference between deactivating or negating an artifact? or are they the same thing?

Other Question

5. Are any special abilities that state " at any time" can they be used when another SA is resolving itself as well?

browarod · « **Reply #42 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:20:23 PM »

1. Artifacts with ongoing abilities are always active, regardless of whose turn it is.

2. That is correct. Leaving an artifact up is consenting to keep it active for another round.

3. In the cases of artifacts like Holy Grail with instant abilities, the artifact is discarded immediately upon activating the second use. I'm not sure if that's the same with artifacts that have ongoing abilities (like your 2 examples) though I would assume they'd stay until their effect expires during your next turn after using its last use.

4. Deactivating an artifact is a game action whereas negate is a special ability. Deactivating an artifact does not negate it insomuch as it doesn't undo anything the artifact has already done, though ongoing abilities do cease to be active upon deactivating an artifact much like if it was negated.

5. No. No cards can activate while an ability is resolving regardless of what it says. "At any time" just means you don't have to have initiative to use the ability (for example, even if you're winning the battle you could decide to discard the bottom card of your deck with Gates of Hell) and it can be used during any player's turn.

Redoubter · « **Reply #43 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:31:24 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 09, 2014, 05:20:23 PM

3. In the cases of artifacts like Holy Grail with instant abilities, the artifact is discarded immediately upon activating the second use. I'm not sure if that's the same with artifacts that have ongoing abilities (like your 2 examples) though I would assume they'd stay until their effect expires during your next turn after using its last use.

My understanding has always been that the 'counters' for turns are incremented during the upkeep phase, and so it would be discarded then.

Agree with browarod on all points.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #44 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:46:45 PM »

Just to clarify with question 2 , by the player's 2nd turn even if the artifact is still face up , they can still activate a different artifact in their artifact pile as long as they choose not to activate the SA on the I am salvation card for the 2nd turn?

Redoubter · « **Reply #45 on:** January 09, 2014, 05:59:07 PM »

Quote from: redemption collector 777 on January 09, 2014, 05:46:45 PM

Just to clarify with question 2 , by the player's 2nd turn even if the artifact is still face up , they can still activate a different artifact in their artifact pile as long as they choose not to activate the SA on the I am salvation card for the 2nd turn?

Correct, it would have one 'turn used' of its two (which only resets in hand, deck, or discard), but then you activate a different artifact instead.

AJ · « **Reply #46 on:** January 09, 2014, 06:43:06 PM »

A turn starts with the draw phase.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #47 on:** January 09, 2014, 06:46:46 PM »

Quote from: AJ on January 09, 2014, 06:43:06 PM

A turn starts with the draw phase.

sorry just deleted the post after the question was answered.

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #48 on:** January 09, 2014, 06:55:01 PM »

1. Would this be considered one for full turn for set a side like The Sabbath

Player A 1st turn set aside during prep phase , Player A 3rd turn upkeep phase (to change counter) and then prep phase return back to territory?

2. Can these set side enhancement gained SA only be used once by one character in a single battle?

The Sabbath SA: Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. For the next one of those Heroes that enters battle good enhancements use by that CBN.

Witnesses to Creation: Set one Silver hero for 7 turns. The next time hero enters battle he can not be blocked by humans.

Questions about Lost Soul (Wanderer)

LS ( Wanderer) SA: If this card is in your territory during your preparation phase , you may exchange it with a LS in an opponent's territory.

3. Can you exchange LS (Wanderer) with another LS in an opponents that is in a site?

3.1.After being exchanged once can an opponent who has the LS in their territory exchange it back?

3.2 If player A exchanges (Wanderer) with either LS (CBP) (Shut door) (Far Country) (Evicter) from Player B's territory can Player B use the LS effect for their own use?

3.3 Can you exchange a Lost Soul in an opponent's site like LS cards (hand discard) (deck discard) choose one of those LS and put them in one of your sites to do the SA and then do this repeatedly?

Redoubter · « **Reply #49 on:** January 09, 2014, 07:34:00 PM »

1. Set-asides are counted during the controlling player's upkeep, each upkeep. At least that's how I remember it, it's hard to keep those rules straight sometimes

2. It does exactly what it says, and no more: For Sabbath, only the next of those heroes to enter battle (even if they all banded it, the first one is the only one that counts) plays CBN enhancements, and it is only for that one battle; for Witness, the next time he enters battle, and only that battle, he ignores humans. If it lasted longer, it would say so, and there are some that specify that the character "gains" something or has it "until discarded".

3. Yes indeed. And any soul exchanged counts as being placed in a site, if it ends up there as the result of an exchange.

3.1 They control it, so they can use its ability just as it reads as well.

3.2 Depends. If they say "when drawn" or "when put into play", then no, because you didn't do those things. If they say "when put in a site", then yes you can, because you did that.

3.3 Yep, as mentioned above, you could both keep swapping them back and forth and hitting each other, since it counts as placing them in a site. Fun times.

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Author Topic: Questions about certain rules and cards #2 (Read 12267 times)

browarod

browarod