Author Topic: Random question about Carcasses and Ishbibenob's spear (Read 1505 times)

redemption collector 777 · « **on:** March 14, 2014, 06:05:32 PM »

This may have an easy answer not sure though

What if the curse Carcasses was active SA If a warrior class EC is in battle discard abilities on evil enhancements CBN.

then a Warrior class EC is blocking one hero with a weapon Ishbibenob's spear (black version) SA you may discard this card to underdeck a hero and decides to do it.

1. Is the entire enhancement CBN? (like the underdeck part since you have to discard it to activate the underdeck part) or is the discard and underdeck separate abilities?

Nameless · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2014, 06:11:54 PM »

The whole thing is CBN.

Josh · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2014, 09:00:34 PM »

The discarding of the spear is CBN. The underdecking is not. They are separate abilities, and thus, each can be CBN or not CBN on its own, due to other cards like Carcasses.

browarod · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2014, 10:42:30 PM »

They're actually the same ability, just the cost and benefit of it. I don't know what that means in this situation, though. I know if a benefit is CBN that effectively makes the cost CBN as well (even if it isn't technically) but I don't know about if the cost is CBN and the benefit isn't.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2014, 11:04:43 PM »

I like this question, definitely a good one. Really, it comes down to what we define as an ability, as mentioned above. Could this be used against Moses? My reaction would be no, as the underdeck was not CBN. Therefore, you could not do the cost, and you do not get the benefit.

I can certainly see the other argument, though I am very wary of the odd (and dangerous) rulings that would come out of that way of thinking, if one part (or just the second part) of a cost-benefit made the whole thing affected by other cards based on its one part of the ability.

I'd be interested to get more input on this.

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2014, 08:47:57 AM »

Quote from: browarod on March 14, 2014, 10:42:30 PM

I know if a benefit is CBN that effectively makes the cost CBN as well

Is there a ruling that makes you believe this is true? I can't think of a reason why it would be so.

Cost-benefit abilities can be reworded into two-sentence, two-ability abilities that mean exactly the same thing.

"You may discard this card. If you do, underdeck a hero." I see no reason why an "underdeck a hero" ability becomes CBN simply because a prior action required to do the underdecking happened to be CBN.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2014, 04:24:50 PM »

I would rule that it worked, without getting too winded I see the cost and benefit as inseparable.

DrowningFish · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2014, 04:48:23 PM »

The original question states that since the discarding cant be negated so does the underdecking of the hero. You cant negate an underdecking to my knowledge. So i would say yes the entire enhancement becomes CBN. It says TO underdeck a hero, which entails that it is one special ability for the enhacement.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** March 15, 2014, 05:03:59 PM »

Quote from: DrowningFish on March 15, 2014, 04:48:23 PM

You cant negate an underdecking to my knowledge.

That's not true. Lots of things can negate underdeck, just like any other ability. If something negated evil weapons, or evil enhancements, or there was just FBTN being used, then it would negate that part of it too.

But yes, I thought it was the other weapon.

Either way, the underdeck part can be negated even if the discard could not be. That would be my ruling.

DrowningFish · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2014, 05:41:02 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on March 15, 2014, 05:03:59 PM

Quote from: DrowningFish on March 15, 2014, 04:48:23 PM
You cant negate an underdecking to my knowledge.

That's not true. Lots of things can negate underdeck, just like any other ability. If something negated evil weapons, or evil enhancements, or there was just FBTN being used, then it would negate that part of it too.

But yes, I thought it was the other weapon.

Either way, the underdeck part can be negated even if the discard could not be. That would be my ruling.

but along with carcasses its a CBN vs CBN...

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** March 15, 2014, 05:58:14 PM »

Quote from: DrowningFish on March 15, 2014, 05:41:02 PM

but along with carcasses its a CBN vs CBN...

Carcasses doesn't make anything CBN that isn't a discard ability. You could still prevent, interrupt, or negate any other part (including underdecking).

Also, not sure where you get another CBN ability coming into play here...

DrowningFish · « **Reply #11 on:** March 15, 2014, 06:11:22 PM »

If I'm negating all weapon class enhancements and you have carcasses + ish's spear isn't it CBN and CBN?

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** March 15, 2014, 08:17:51 PM »

That would be negate versus CBN, not CBN versus CBN.

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** March 15, 2014, 09:21:09 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 15, 2014, 08:17:51 PM

That would be negate versus CBN, not CBN versus CBN.

This is correct, the negate that I have isn't necessarily CBN, but that doesn't matter in this case at all regardless.

The point I was making is that only the discard portion is CBN. The underdeck is not CBN, so it can be prevented, interrupted, or negated. The more I think about it, the less I can see this any other way, because they are not the same abilities (even if they are components of the same 'ability').

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2014, 01:54:04 PM »

I would rule that the enhancement can be discarded but the effect would not activate. If you had a card that worked like Protection of Jerusalem that triggered every time you discarded a card it would fulfill the cost.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2014, 04:46:27 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 20, 2014, 01:54:04 PM

I would rule that the enhancement can be discarded but the effect would not activate.

Just clarifying that you mean if it is being prevented at that point, that this is the scenario in which the second part would not activate.

In this case, if the enhancement is being prevented, you could CBN discard the enhancement but NOT underdeck a hero, as that part is not CBN (and therefore prevented). If it were not prevented, and you used it, your opponent could still negate it as normal (even with Special Initiative). If they did, the weapon would still be discarded, because that part is CBN.

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:07:01 PM »

My initial gut response is that the discard ability of Ish. Spear is CBN via Carcasses but that does not make the underdeck ability CBN.

If Carcasses said "...evil enhancements with discard abilities cannot be negated" then it would make all of Spear CBN.

Josh · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2014, 12:33:53 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 20, 2014, 05:07:01 PM

My initial gut response is that the discard ability of Ish. Spear is CBN via Carcasses but that does not make the underdeck ability CBN.

If Carcasses said "...evil enhancements with discard abilities cannot be negated" then it would make all of Spear CBN.

This is a great explanation. And there is a card that grants CBN to whole enhancements if part of the enhancement is a certain ability, so I would use this as an example of how this works:

Korah, because of his wording, makes an EE fully CBN if part of the ability is an evil banding ability. So Korah makes Siege CBN, even though the part of Siege that adds heroes to battle is not a "band" ability (I think it is a "Present" ability?).

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Author Topic: Random question about Carcasses and Ishbibenob's spear (Read 1505 times)

redemption collector 777

Random question about Carcasses and Ishbibenob's spear

Nameless

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Josh

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browarod

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Redoubter

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Josh

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Jmbeers

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DrowningFish

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Redoubter

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DrowningFish

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Redoubter

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DrowningFish

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browarod

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Redoubter

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RTSmaniac

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Redoubter

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The Guardian

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Josh

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