Author Topic: Question added..... 4/10 (Read 6293 times)

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #25 on:** April 11, 2010, 03:18:22 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 11, 2010, 03:14:34 PM

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on April 11, 2010, 02:18:48 PM
Wow. I really think the REG is wrong there, I just can't remember who said that winning BTN doesn't allow dominants. Time to go look.

That quote is not from the REG, it is from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook. Schaef's comments in the thread you linked seem to indicate that you cannot play a dominant during Battle Resolution, which is contradictory to the Rulebook. Were Schaef's comments an official overruling of the rulebook?

Sorry, you're right. I didn't read the source.

I'm not sure if it is consider to be an overruling, but I for one would believe Schaef more than the rulebook TBH. We might want to seek confirmation, though.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #26 on:** April 11, 2010, 04:27:13 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on April 11, 2010, 02:24:36 PM

After searching a while, I found this thread http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15834.0. Schaef answers my question there.

Thanks for reminding me of that thread. I guess the important thing there is that if you actually let your EC die by the numbers then you are really saying that you don't have anything else to do. If you brought in another EC with Unknown Nation, or from being face down on the site, then you wouldn't discard your original EC first. In fact you might not even be losing by the numbers anymore.

However, the overall ruling is the same and that is that the LS in Hormah goes to the bottom of the deck before attacker can rescue it.

The Schaef · « **Reply #27 on:** April 11, 2010, 07:19:33 PM »

The 10th Anniversary rulebook was printed in 2005.

The release of Priests and the coinciding rule changes about Dominant play were made in 2006.

The statement in the rulebook is obsolete because Dominants now follow the 8th Commandment. Son of God and NJ must be played at the same time by the same player, you cannot use Son of God or Burial in the middle of shuffling Lost Souls, and you cannot play Dominants to affect the outcome of the battle once the battle is declared "ended" and moves into Battle Resolution.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2010, 07:36:18 PM »

Thanks Schaef! Now I know.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2010, 07:49:26 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 11, 2010, 03:14:34 PM

[Were Schaef's comments an official overruling of the rulebook?

Schaef's comments were merely echoing those in an earlier (and apparently purged thread) which ended with Bryon ruling in exactly the same way. I remember it well, because I was the person arguing (somewhat fervently) against the decision.

While I understand why it is ruled this way, I still dislike the ruling because it strikes me as one that in antithetical to the spirit of the game. A new player learns--probably the hard way--that their opponent can play Christian Martyr or Burial after they use Angel of the Lord or a battle-winner and prevent them from rescuing a lost soul. Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.

Tracer Burnout · « **Reply #30 on:** April 11, 2010, 08:12:12 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 11, 2010, 07:49:26 PM

This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.

Exactly

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #31 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:10:52 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 11, 2010, 07:19:33 PM

The 10th Anniversary rulebook was printed in 2005.

The release of Priests and the coinciding rule changes about Dominant play were made in 2006.

The statement in the rulebook is obsolete because Dominants now follow the 8th Commandment. Son of God and NJ must be played at the same time by the same player, you cannot use Son of God or Burial in the middle of shuffling Lost Souls, and you cannot play Dominants to affect the outcome of the battle once the battle is declared "ended" and moves into Battle Resolution.

Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:36:38 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on April 11, 2010, 11:10:52 PM

Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?

The key here is to play your doms before you "let your ec die"

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #33 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:38:05 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on April 11, 2010, 11:10:52 PM

Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?

At least one of us is confused, so I will attempt to clarify: Removing or otherwise incapacitating an opposing character by a special ability does not end the battle (unless the card says so). Unknown Nation can still be used if your opponent plays AotL or a battle-winner which you are unable to negate. However, if you are losing by the numbers and it is your initiative, you have the choice as to whether or not you want to play something. If you choose to die, then you are signifying that the battle is over and your opponent has won. And so, there is no excuse for saying, "Oh, by the way, Dominant." Get it? (I think I do.

)

The Schaef · « **Reply #34 on:** April 11, 2010, 11:44:54 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 11, 2010, 07:49:26 PM

Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.

I disagree with the idea that it does not promote fun and fellowship to tell a player that the rules incentivize him to play a card that defeats you without having to lose his own card in the process. I would think he would be rather pleased to learn that this rule works to his benefit.

The only people who have their fun truly hampered are the people who try to game the system so that their opponent's characters are on both sides of the battle, and they are trying to kill both of that player's characters AND prevent the rescue AND prevent him from doing anything about it. My sympathy for them is appropriately diminished.

If he really wanted to do that, he would play Babel, band in all of his opponents' ECs plus his own Rab/2K Horses, then play DoU. Then Martyr the Hero just because.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** April 12, 2010, 03:55:01 AM »

I lol'd. You're sporadically really really funny.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 12, 2010, 07:30:50 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on April 11, 2010, 11:38:05 PM

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on April 11, 2010, 11:10:52 PM
Just to get this straight for future reference....If I let my ec die in battle or cannot negate anything in battle, I don't have a change to play any doms before I can give the ls to the opponent and after my ec dies?
Removing or otherwise incapacitating an opposing character by a special ability does not end the battle (unless the card says so). Unknown Nation can still be used if your opponent plays AotL or a battle-winner which you are unable to negate. However, if you are losing by the numbers and it is your initiative, you have the choice as to whether or not you want to play something. If you choose to die, then you are signifying that the battle is over and your opponent has won. And so, there is no excuse for saying, "Oh, by the way, Dominant." Get it? (I think I do. )

Just so! BubbleBoy is correct not only on the ruling but the reasons behind the ruling.

Given this, if you can't even play Dominants, I do not believe you could play Unholy Writ or Unknown Nation or... I am unsure about what happens with triggered abilities such as Hormah, however. I believe that as soon as the trigger is tripped (i.e., the EC is discarded), the SA would carry through (i.e., Hormah and any lost soul gets put under the deck). Schaef, could you comment on that?

Quote from: The Schaef on April 11, 2010, 11:44:54 PM

[Response on fun and fellowship deleted. I'm just adding the quote to provide context for my comment--mjb]

I agree with Pol.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #37 on:** April 12, 2010, 07:36:44 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 11, 2010, 11:44:54 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 11, 2010, 07:49:26 PM
Later they try the same trick after discarding their EC by the numbers only to have the judge called over and their CM made basically useless by this rule. This still strikes me as not being very conducive to fun and fellowship.

I disagree with the idea that it does not promote fun and fellowship to tell a player that the rules incentivize him to play a card that defeats you without having to lose his own card in the process. I would think he would be rather pleased to learn that this rule works to his benefit.

The only people who have their fun truly hampered are the people who try to game the system so that their opponent's characters are on both sides of the battle, and they are trying to kill both of that player's characters AND prevent the rescue AND prevent him from doing anything about it. My sympathy for them is appropriately diminished.

If he really wanted to do that, he would play Babel, band in all of his opponents' ECs plus his own Rab/2K Horses, then play DoU. Then Martyr the Hero just because.

but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** April 12, 2010, 06:42:42 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 12, 2010, 07:36:44 AM

but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!

... because banding in all those ECs will give your opponent initiative. You only get one play after the band with Horses, so it has to be one that stops the rescue. Korah's Rebellion works almost as well but has that annoying quality of being in the brown brigade, which does not have a horsey card unless I'm forgetting one, and does not match up with the pale green character that both plays the next Enhancement AND cannot be interrupted. Not to mention you're adding to a combo that already requires like six cards.

Quote

Given this, if you can't even play Dominants, I do not believe you could play Unholy Writ or Unknown Nation or... I am unsure about what happens with triggered abilities such as Hormah, however. I believe that as soon as the trigger is tripped (i.e., the EC is discarded), the SA would carry through (i.e., Hormah and any lost soul gets put under the deck).

Correct. If it is discarded by an instant ability, say someone Angel'd your Esau, you could trigger Hormah even though Rabby is still in the battle.

In fact, if someone played Authority promo on me, I could discard all my ECs as required, trigger Hormah, then use Unknown Nation to pull out another EC and keep on going!

There are two things to ending the battle that require to pay really close attention. First, while you can only play characters and Enhancements at certain times based on the rules of battle and initiative, there are several play you can make that do not require it to be your turn or even to have initiative. Dominants are the obvious example, but it can also apply to many kinds of cards sitting active in your territory waiting for you to trigger them. Artifacts like Unholy Writ are examples of this. You can play as much of those as you want, all you want, until the battle is ended by an "end the battle" special ability, or all players in the game agree that they're all done playing cards this battle. This applies not only to the two players battling, but also if another in a multi-player match wants to use his Christian Martyr to stop someone else's rescue.

So yes, you can play your Authority promo on my EC. And I can play Burial on my Lost Soul even after you killed my EC with a special ability. And you can play your Harvest Time to fish out another Lost Soul. And I can play Unknown Nation to bring another character into battle. And you can play Angel of the Lord on my new EC. And then I can play Christian Martyr on your Hero. So even though you played a card we refer to as a "battle-winner" - and for the most part it is - players are never denied the chance to play these other cards if they are able, and it goes on for as long as someone still has a card they want to play.

The second thing is that when numbers only are used to determine initiative, an Evil Character is still considered to be in battle even if losing, and can still play Enhancements and so forth. An Evil Character losing by the numbers only dies when the battle has ended. Play goes on until the players agree that the battle has ended, and then in Battle Resolution you determine that the Evil Character was defeated, and so is discarded by game rule. And because the EC was discarded as a result of the battle ending, it is too late now to play anything else to affect the battle.

So that's the trade-off you get: you can play all the cards you want until it is agreed that no more cards will be played this battle, and then after that you cannot play any cards that affect the outcome of the battle.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** April 12, 2010, 07:08:04 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 12, 2010, 06:42:42 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on April 12, 2010, 07:36:44 AM
but why stop there? why not Babel in all of their ECs, and Esau and a Rab + Horses, play a Seige, then a Korah's Rebellion. with Asherah Pole active, of course!

... because banding in all those ECs will give your opponent initiative. You only get one play after the band with Horses, so it has to be one that stops the rescue. Korah's Rebellion works almost as well but has that annoying quality of being in the brown brigade, which does not have a horsey card unless I'm forgetting one, and does not match up with the pale green character that both plays the next Enhancement AND cannot be interrupted. Not to mention you're adding to a combo that already requires like six cards.

I wasn't saying it would be reliable, I was saying it'd be fun. which would mean you could throw in a Nebby and Swift Horses, because this is all hypothetical.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 12, 2010, 07:56:28 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 12, 2010, 06:42:42 PM

The second thing is that when numbers only are used to determine initiative, an Evil Character is still considered to be in battle even if losing, and can still play Enhancements and so forth. An Evil Character losing by the numbers only dies when the battle has ended. Play goes on until the players agree that the battle has ended, and then in Battle Resolution you determine that the Evil Character was defeated, and so is discarded by game rule. And because the EC was discarded as a result of the battle ending, it is too late now to play anything else to affect the battle.

Does that include Hormah triggering? Or do cards triggered by the discard of an EC trigger immediately upon the sole remaining EC(s) being discarded because of numbers?

I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #41 on:** April 12, 2010, 09:17:39 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 12, 2010, 07:56:28 PM

I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for, but Schaef said this in the old thread:

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 03:02:33 PM

Giving the Lost Soul is always the last thing that happens.

Hormah would shuffle after the EC dies by numbers, but before the Lost Soul is awarded. Of course, this may not have been your question.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 12, 2010, 09:23:10 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 12, 2010, 09:17:39 PM

Hormah would shuffle after the EC dies by numbers, but before the Lost Soul is awarded. Of course, this may not have been your question.

This is my question. Unfortunately, this interpretation is the opposite of what I thought Stephen was saying just above.

The Schaef · « **Reply #43 on:** April 12, 2010, 10:16:14 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 12, 2010, 07:56:28 PM

I think you are saying Hormah's SA would not take effect until after the battle resolution of a by the numbers EC loss, but I want to make sure.

It would be triggered by the discard but the fact that the discard triggers it takes it off the table so you can't grab the Lost Soul.

This is similar to Raider's Camp, where the ability to release is triggered as part of the Battle Resolution, and "insteads" the Heroes back to you in place of the Lost Soul.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 12, 2010, 10:18:34 PM »

Excellent. Thank you.

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Author Topic: Question added..... 4/10 (Read 6293 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

The Schaef

Tracer Burnout

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef