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Author Topic: Question about playing NJ by itself...  (Read 1983 times)

Offline uthminister [BR]

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Question about playing NJ by itself...
« on: May 18, 2011, 09:21:40 PM »
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So we are playing in a multi game yesterday and a player goes in for the win against another who has two lost souls, one of which is this.

Luke 13_25 (Di)
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If an opponent plays a good Dominant, you may place this Lost Soul beneath owner's deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 13:25 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

One of the players plays Burial to get rid of one lost soul, but then another player plays NJ solo. Can the NJ be played without SoG, thus effectively removing the soul from play because of the soul's special ability.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 09:24:20 PM »
+1
That is a legal, and crafty play.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 09:37:27 PM »
+1
Pol is correct about the legal and the crafty.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 12:34:54 AM »
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I'm not sure.  The SA on NJ says to "Play this card simultaneously with the Son of God..."

If a card says it has to be played with SoG, then can it be played without it?
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browarod

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 12:54:07 AM »
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Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 19, 2011, 12:34:54 AM
I'm not sure.  The SA on NJ says to "Play this card simultaneously with the Son of God..."

If a card says it has to be played with SoG, then can it be played without it?
You can play DoN for no effect if there are no active artifacts, so why couldn't you play NJ for no effect if you don't have SoG?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 01:06:57 AM »
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You can, Mark is just being silly. :)
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 01:28:19 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on May 19, 2011, 12:54:07 AM
You can play DoN for no effect if there are no active artifacts, so why couldn't you play NJ for no effect if you don't have SoG?
The difference is that DoN doesn't say anything about playing itself.  I'm sure that you can discard NJ to get rid of Confusion of Mind, so there are some things that I know you can do with it by itself.  But it seems that it's SA is limiting how you can actually "play" the card.

Quote from: Gabe on May 19, 2011, 01:06:57 AM
You can, Mark is just being silly. :)
Actually I'm being serious.  I'm not saying for sure one way or the other, but I'd like to hear some more input before ruling the question out.  Would you mind sharing your thoughts on why you came to the conclusion you did?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2011, 01:33:39 AM »
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NJ's SA only activates when it's played. If the "play this card simultaneously" part was an identifier, then perhaps your argument would have merit. However, Doms can always be played even when they don't do anything. Playing NJ without SoG is as legal as playing Grapes during your prep phase.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 01:55:18 AM »
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Quote from: Professoralstad on May 19, 2011, 01:33:39 AM
NJ's SA only activates when it's played. If the "play this card simultaneously" part was an identifier, then perhaps your argument would have merit.
But if a SA states how a card is played, then wouldn't that have to be an identifier really?  Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.  How could a card restrict how a card is played after it has already been played (in opposition to the restriction).  Doesn't it seem logical that it SHOULD be an identifier?
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 01:57:21 AM »
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Even if it were rephrased as an ID, he ID line would read "may be played simultaneously with your Son of God" and the SA would be "if played simultaneously with your Son of God, rescue a Lost Soul."
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 02:14:59 AM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 19, 2011, 01:57:21 AM
Even if it were rephrased as an ID, he ID line would read "may be played simultaneously with your Son of God" and the SA would be "if played simultaneously with your Son of God, rescue a Lost Soul."
And IF it were rephrased that way (with the "may" in there), then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

However, the current SA doesn't have "may" in there, and IF it is really an identifier, then this issue is worth discussing.

I don't really care a whole lot, and Gabe and Prof A seem to agree that we not worry about it.  I just wanted to get some more thoughts before moving on.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 02:18:14 AM »
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i dont view the sa as a limitation, but rather as an expansion to what it does if played under the right circumstances. can you play nj at anytime like any other dominant? yes. if played simultaneously with son of god? go ahead and rescue another lost soul.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2011, 02:20:45 AM »
+2
I propose the following errata for the New Jerusalem dominant:

SA: Unimportant
Identifier: Banned!

 ;)
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Offline uthminister [BR]

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2011, 09:44:37 AM »
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I had the same thoughts that Mark is having, but I also don't see the ability as a restricting when it can be played, but explaining that if it is played in a certain situation what it can do. I suppose that I see it like the cards that say if played on a prophet, do this. Can you play it apart from a prophet? Absolutely, but it would be better not to. In this scenario the guy who was blocked this way actually ended up winning after five more successful seat-of-the-pants blocks were pulled off. Craziest Type-1 Multiplayer game I have played in recent memory which is saying a bunch since there were several memorable games at the Ohio State Tournament.
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2011, 02:46:56 PM »
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If an opponent plays a good Dominant, you may place this Lost Soul beneath owner's deck.

Nasty!
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Offline COUNTER_SNIPER

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Re: Question about playing NJ by itself...
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2011, 03:00:34 PM »
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Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 19, 2011, 12:34:54 AM
The SA on NJ says to "Play this card simultaneously with the Son of God... and rescue any additional lost soul in play"



Based on the full SA, it sounds more like a "Fulfill part A to achieve Part B" scenario.  I think it isn't a stretch to say NJ can be played by itself.  (I know it says "AND," but it still seems plausible)

Carry On,

-C_S
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