Author Topic: Question about Abom and unholy writ  (Read 12952 times)

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2009, 12:10:52 AM »
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do you not play enhancements one at a time with high places? same thing with writ, im using its ability one capture at a time. capture a human hero, capture a human hero...so on so forth. my point being, there is nothing at all printed on the card that limits the usage of unholy writ.
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Offline lightningninja

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2009, 12:17:22 AM »
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Here we go again...

If you honestly believe that you should be able to capture any number of heroes with Unholy Writ by the end of battle then please make an argument. If you, like myself, believe that it's pretty obvious it's meant to capture one, be discarded and be done with, please stop.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2009, 12:44:45 AM »
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Here we go again...

If you honestly believe that you should be able to capture any number of heroes with Unholy Writ by the end of battle then please make an argument.

did you like, miss the last 4 pages or something?

Quote
If you, like myself, believe that it's pretty obvious it's meant to capture one, be discarded and be done with, please stop.

what you 'believe' (moreso what is 'obvious') and what is written are two completely different things, with the former being irrelevant towards consistency.
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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2009, 09:55:00 AM »
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did you like, miss the last 4 pages or something?
Did you like, miss everything Tim has said?

He has already explained it like 4 different ways.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2009, 10:00:21 AM »
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Hey,

do you not play enhancements one at a time with high places?

Actually no.  Just like Arrogance (the other card with an ability to play more than one enhancement) all enhancements are played at the same time with High Places.  You get one chance during your preparation phase to play enhancements and once chance during your discard phase to play enhancements.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline crustpope

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2009, 10:02:42 AM »
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it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.

I am assuming then that this is EXACTLY how you have been playing it for all these years?  Just capturing as many heros in battle as you want and then d/c ing it after use?  If you can tell me that that is how you have been playing it then you have a reason to keep jawwing about this, but you would be in the extreme minority in how this card has been played.  The rest of us have been using it to capture a single hero in battle and then d/c ing it after use.

The only new revelation here is that if the SA on UW is not negated, then "surprise, surprise" it can still be used within the same phase (just like everything else, enhancements, characters etc.)  Just because it is d/c'ed before it captures does not open it up to an endless feedback loop of capturing.

That I can understand, but the idea that I can manually trigger it after it has been discarded makes no sense to me. However, as Crustpope implied, I am not too bright for not understanding this.

Ever d/c and enhancement yet still use its SA?  Since you are a "bright" fella I will asume that you have and you understand that discarding a card and negating its SA are two different things.  That is all I am saying and that does not require tremendous leapsof logic.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2009, 10:26:20 AM »
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Hey,

I do not have a problem with MKC's series of statements in this thread.  Just because we've played something a certain way for three years doesn't mean we've been playing it right.  And just because playing something a certain way has results bordering on the absurd (or overpowered) doesn't mean that's not the right way to play it under the status quo.  The game needs people in it that are not afraid to challenge the status quo, because if no one challenged the status quo the game couldn't improve.  To that extent I appreciate MKC's posts.

That being said, the rules system works for the vast majority of situations and in recent years the number of problems in the rules system has been decreasing.  I would appreciate it if players that are challenging the status quo did so recognized this and challenged the status quo in a "not broken until proven broken" sort of way.  I have much more respect for a post (and it's poster) that says "[totally amazing combo] seems too good to be true.  Is there a rule I've forgotten about that makes it not work like I want it to?" than I do for a post that says "[totally amazing combo] is overpowered and broken, we need errata."

This thread is a perfect example of what I'd like to see.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2009, 04:47:00 PM »
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Ever d/c and enhancement yet still use its SA?  Since you are a "bright" fella I will asume that you have and you understand that discarding a card and negating its SA are two different things.  That is all I am saying and that does not require tremendous leapsof logic.

I would argue that it does. Discarding cards that have an ongoing effect is one thing, but discarding a card that has not been triggered yet is different. I'm not sure why that seems like such a stretch of intelligence.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2009, 05:02:02 PM »
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Perhaps I have a solution for this conundrum :)  We would all agree about the following situation:

Player 1 plays a GE to win a battle.  Player 2 plays an EE to interrupt the battle and discard the hero.  The GE then tries to activate, but can't because there is no hero for it to activate on.  Thus for the card to work, it needs both an available target, and the proper "foundation" (in this case a character of matching brigade).

So what if we said that for an artifact/curse/covenant to work, it also needs both an available target and the proper "foundation" (in this case the artifact pile or other designated location like a temple).  Therefore, in a situation with an artifact that isn't continuously active, if it is no longer on that "foundation", then it can't activate anymore.

Offline mjwolfe

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2009, 06:11:54 PM »
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Perhaps I have a solution for this conundrum :)  We would all agree about the following situation:

Player 1 plays a GE to win a battle.  Player 2 plays an EE to interrupt the battle and discard the hero.  The GE then tries to activate, but can't because there is no hero for it to activate on.  Thus for the card to work, it needs both an available target, and the proper "foundation" (in this case a character of matching brigade).

So what if we said that for an artifact/curse/covenant to work, it also needs both an available target and the proper "foundation" (in this case the artifact pile or other designated location like a temple).  Therefore, in a situation with an artifact that isn't continuously active, if it is no longer on that "foundation", then it can't activate anymore.
There is a big difference between an enhancement having been interrupted and trying to re-activate after the interrupt and an artifact that has activated and its special ability is still in effect because it hasn't been interrupted or negated, just the card was discarded.

I don't think that there is really a conundrum here. Nothing is broken. Just people discussing how an effect with a manual trigger can still be active waiting for the manual trigger when the card that activated it has been discarded. If this needs to be changed, there would be a lot of other cases where an effect is still active but its card has been discarded that would have to change too. I just don't see a problem here.

Mike

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2009, 06:35:43 PM »
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If this needs to be changed, there would be a lot of other cases where an effect is still active but its card has been discarded that would have to change too. I just don't see a problem here.

Again, let us not lump this into "effects that are still active." I am talking specifically about cards that are triggered or that have conditions. I think that if the trigger has not been activated (or the conditions met) before the card is discarded, then the ability should no longer be accessible.

Is this a universal ruling that I have been getting wrong all this time? If my Covenant of Noah is discarded, I can still negate an EE later in battle?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2009, 06:49:46 PM »
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Is this a universal ruling that I have been getting wrong all this time?

I guess so.  This is what the REG has to say:

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Discard or Remove > Default Conditions
Cards with ongoing abilities that are not negated continue until the end of the phase in which they are discarded or removed from battle (in the case of special abilities on characters and enhancements, unless specified otherwise), or discarded or removed from play (in the case of sites, artifacts, fortresses, lost souls, placed cards, etc…).

If my Covenant of Noah is discarded, I can still negate an EE later in battle?

Yes, if it was active as an Artifact.  This probably hasn't come up very often, if ever, since almost every card that can discard an Artifact also negates it.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2009, 07:06:04 PM »
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I guess so.  This is what the REG has to say:

For goodness sake, can anyone get past that REG quote for just a moment. I am not talking about ongoing abilities. If you look in the REG, there are two main sections - Instant Abilities and Ongoing Abilities. Under that is a list of Instant Ability cards and Ongoing Ability cards. Unholy Writ is listed as an Instant Ability Card. Why would a simpleton like me not ignore the REG quote above since UW is an Instant Ability Card and the quote specifies Ongoing Abilities?
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Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2009, 07:15:44 PM »
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+1.  Writ is an instant ability.  Using it many times does not change that fact.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2009, 07:22:42 PM »
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At last a smart person agrees with me. I feel better already (even if I'm still wrong).  ;D

Here is the REG definition of Ongoing Abilities. Please explain to me where Unholy Writ fits in the definition because I am still missing it.

Ongoing Abilities

Ongoing abilities are abilities that have not yet completed.  For example, banding is not an ongoing ability because it completes itself before initiative passes.  Banding abilities are Instant Abilities.  Gabriel is not an ongoing ability because it completes itself before initiative passes. The following are ongoing special abilities:

Lasting Effects (last until end of battle unless specified otherwise)


•      Access to Sites

•      Copy Ability

•      First Strike

•      Greater Worth

•      Ignore or Repel

•      Immune

•      Increase or Decrease Ability

•      Increase or Decrease Hand Limit

•      Negate All

•      Prevent

•      Protect

Triggered effects (if X happens, then do Y)

•      Delayed effects (a time is specified like end of battle , e.g., Great Image, King Tiglath-Pileser III, Bearing Bad News)

•      Dynamic effects (depends on the state of the battle, e.g., Dance of Death, Siegeworks)

•      Use Other Enhancements (e.g., Coat of Many Colors
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Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2009, 07:26:42 PM »
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Quote
At last a smart person agrees with me. I feel better already (even if I'm still wrong).

I wish.  ::)

Offline Gabe

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2009, 07:55:11 PM »
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Unholy Writ is both a delayed effect and a dynamic effect.

It's delayed in the sense that the ability does not complete immediately when it's activated during your prep phase.

It's dynamic in the sense that it depends on the state of the battle, a human Hero has to be there.

You're correct that it's also an instant capture ability. 

A card can fall into more than one category.  Maybe that's what's tripping you up?
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Offline Cameron the Conqueror

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2009, 07:59:54 PM »
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I (and I assume we) just don't understand how Writ fits into the ongoing category.  It may be delayed/dynamic in the fact it can be used out of prep phase, but that doesn't make it an ongoing ability.

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2009, 08:00:43 PM »
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A card can fall into more than one category.  Maybe that's what's tripping you up?

I make rulings based on what the REG says. The REG clearly defines Ongoing Abilities and there is no indication of "delayed" or "dynamic" effects. "Lasting Effects" are listed under the definition of Ongoing Abilities.

Once again, where in that definition would someone like me come to the conclusion that UW can be used after it is discarded?
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2009, 09:12:40 PM »
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Hey,

Under instant abilities it defines them as: "Instant abilities complete before another ability can be inserted."  That definition does not fit Unholy Writ so Unholy Writ must not be an instant ability.  Since the only options are instant abilities and ongoing abilities (that is the case although it wouldn't surprise me if that's not spelled out anywhere) Unholy Writ must be an ongoing ability.

As far as where Unholy Writ fits in the list of ongoing abilities, the list is broken down into two parts "lasting effects" and "triggered effects."  A triggered effect is explained as "if X happens, then do Y."  Which is what Unholy Writ does: X = I choose to use it, Y = Capture a human hero in battle.  It would then fit into the sub category of "delayed effects" under triggered effects.

Any player moving from playing by the rules to mastering the rules should at some point have trouble with Unholy Writ.  Unholy Writ is worded like an instantaneous ability (as worded on the card).  If you look at the play as it hopefully becomes easier to understand that it's an ongoing ability.  If you look at the play as closer you probably start to wonder how we got to the play as from the original wording.  It comes down to the idea of manually triggered abilities (which unfortunately the REG doesn't link you to from Unholy Writ and even if it did the definition of manually triggered abilities isn't all that helpful).

Manually triggered abilities are (generally) instantaneous abilities that do their thing when you choose for them to rather than when they are activated.  This allows two things: (1) it allows your preparation phase (and to a lesser extent your discard phase) to be fluid rather than rigid.  If there weren't manually triggered abilities fortresses like Kingdoms (putting characters in it) would have to be the first thing you do during your preparation phase.  It would be a little bit like going back to the days where we had a separate artifact activation phase, site maintenance phase, and whatever else we had.  The new preparation phase where players can do things in whatever order they like is much better in my mind and we need manually triggered abilities to be able to do that.  And (2) it allows us to make cards that are not played in battle to have an instantaneous effect on battle (Herod's Dungeon, The Silver Trumpets, Unholy Writ, Covenant with Noah, etc).  This adds a new dimension to battle making them all the more fun (well, perhaps the funness of it is debatable, but it definitely makes battles potentially more interesting).

When we first started using the idea of Manually triggered abilities I think we had a pretty good definition of how you identify them.  When I get time I'll look and see if I can find it somewhere.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2009, 09:33:02 PM »
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Under instant abilities it defines them as: "Instant abilities complete before another ability can be inserted."  That definition does not fit Unholy Writ so Unholy Writ must not be an instant ability.  Since the only options are instant abilities and ongoing abilities (that is the case although it wouldn't surprise me if that's not spelled out anywhere) Unholy Writ must be an ongoing ability.

Except that the REG specifically lists it as an Instant Ability Card and not as an Ongoing Ability Card.

As far as where Unholy Writ fits in the list of ongoing abilities, the list is broken down into two parts "lasting effects" and "triggered effects."  A triggered effect is explained as "if X happens, then do Y."  Which is what Unholy Writ does: X = I choose to use it, Y = Capture a human hero in battle.  It would then fit into the sub category of "delayed effects" under triggered effects.

Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
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Offline everytribe

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2009, 10:59:03 PM »
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If I activate UW, I don't have to use it. I can't use it if its not face up. I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile. If I can something is wrong with that rule.

I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2009, 11:54:07 PM »
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Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
Except that enhancements activate and take effect immediately unless specified otherwise (such as with Great Image). Reach of Desperation doesn't say "whenever you wish in the battle, draw 3 cards" so it defaults to drawing 3 when you play it.

Offline crustpope

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2009, 01:41:51 AM »
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I can't use it if its not face up.
Because it was not activated.

Quote
I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile.

You should if it was only discarded and not degated

Quote
I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
 

That would be true since DoN can only target cards in play.
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Offline mjwolfe

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Re: Question about Abom and unholy writ
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2009, 01:47:52 AM »
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If I activate UW, I don't have to use it. I can't use it if its not face up. I shouldn't be able to use it in the discard pile. If I can something is wrong with that rule.

I can't use Destruction of Nehustion on UW after my oponent used it and it is in the Discard pile.
Unholy Writ is an instant ability in the fact that when it is activated in the preparation phase it immediately sets up a manually triggered event "that when the holder chooses they may capture a human hero in battle then discard Unholy Writ." The special ability on the card is completed once the manually triggered effect is setup. Since Unholy Writ's special ability has completed, you are free to play other cards. The manually triggered effect is still active until negated. It no longer depends on the Unholy Writ card being in play, which is why it can be discarded. This is similar to banding a FBN Hero into battle( where their SA ativates, negates the banding and forces themselves out of battle). The special ability on the Hero has completed, but the effect continues till the end of the phase even though the hero is no longer in battle. To use Unholy Writ, you are not activating the card and it's special ability again during the opponent's turn (since you can only activate an artifact during the prep phase), you are simply satisfying the condition of the manual trigger that is still in effect (by choosing to use it when a human hero is in battle).


Based on this explanation, every card that says "may" would be an Ongoing Ability. So I could play Reach of Desperation and choose to draw the three cards later in the turn (as long as it is not negated).
Cards that say "may" are not ongoing abilities because they do not specify another time when they can be used. You have to choose to do them or not do them right then before the special ability completes. Unholy Writ completes as soon as it grants you the right to do something later "when you choose".

Mike
« Last Edit: November 04, 2009, 01:52:24 AM by mjwolfe »

 


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