Author Topic: Question about Abom and unholy writ (Read 12764 times)

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #25 on:** November 02, 2009, 12:06:42 PM »

Only when your opponent draws cards outside of draw phase. Or until he can discard Abom. Not that big a deal, really.

Kevin Shride

browarod · « **Reply #26 on:** November 02, 2009, 12:11:11 PM »

I have a question about your argument. You said that Writ was not an ongoing ability, but wouldn't the condition "a hero in battle" make it a dynamic ability which is a form of ongoing ability? In that case, even after discarded you should be able to capture the hero as long as she's in battle and meeting the requirement.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** November 02, 2009, 01:13:22 PM »

No, it's not a dynamic ability. "When a Hero is in battle" is just a requirement for when you can use the one-time ability. Writ is neither ongoing nor triggered.

browarod · « **Reply #28 on:** November 02, 2009, 01:19:35 PM »

Hrmm, I still think the ability to, for all intents and purposes, "negate" and discard instant or one-time use cards makes Abom too powerful, as in a dedicated deck you'll be making them draw a lot.

Bryon · « **Reply #29 on:** November 02, 2009, 01:25:17 PM »

Writ is not a triggered ability. It is an "at any time" ability (much like a dominant), with a restriction on who it can target (a hero in battle).

Abom is a triggered ability, so it MUST happen first. However, regardless of the fact that UW is discarded, it was not negated, so its effect lasts through the phase. Currently, UW is a capture ability that then discards itself. It does not need to discard itself as part of the cost of the capture.

So, Abom discards UW first, but then you can still capture the hero. Unless there is errata on UW that reads "Discard this to capture..."

browarod · « **Reply #30 on:** November 02, 2009, 01:33:16 PM »

Yay! I was hoping that was the actual case ^_^

mjwolfe · « **Reply #31 on:** November 02, 2009, 03:36:35 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on November 02, 2009, 01:25:17 PM

Writ is not a triggered ability. It is an "at any time" ability (much like a dominant), with a restriction on who it can target (a hero in battle).

Abom is a triggered ability, so it MUST happen first. However, regardless of the fact that UW is discarded, it was not negated, so its effect lasts through the phase. Currently, UW is a capture ability that then discards itself. It does not need to discard itself as part of the cost of the capture.

So, Abom discards UW first, but then you can still capture the hero. Unless there is errata on UW that reads "Discard this to capture..."

I agree with Bryon completely on this one.

Mike

everytribe · « **Reply #32 on:** November 02, 2009, 03:41:34 PM »

I have to agree with Keven on this one.

Quote from: Kevin Shride on November 02, 2009, 11:59:46 AM

Quote
This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.
Since Unholy Writ is not an ongoing ability, but a one-time use ability, its ability should not remain after it has been discarded. If it's not in play, you can't use it.

Quote
So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?
There are no contradictory or simultaneous triggers here. Generous Widow's ability TRIGGERS Abom's ability, at which point it must be carried out completely; Abom is waiting around for another ability to make it trigger, and GW does just that. Nothing is TRIGGERING Unholy Writ's ability; its ability is at the choice of the owner, who cannot make that choice to use it while another ability is activating.

Kevin Shride

SirNobody · « **Reply #33 on:** November 02, 2009, 04:35:48 PM »

Hey,

Unholy Writ has an ongoing ability. If it were not ongoing it would have to be instantaneous, which means it would have to perform it's capture upon activation, which would make the card almost entirely useless since artifacts are very rarely activated when Heroes are in battle. Unholy Writ is a triggered ability and all triggered abilities are ongoing (I'll come back to this later).

Normal triggered abilities are triggered by events. Normal triggered abilities are carried out immediately following the event that triggered them. There is a small set of triggered abilities that are triggered by states(i.e. "while blocking with a Herod") rather than by events. In these cases, the trigger itself (the state) is not adequate to identify the exact moment when the triggered ability is carried out (because the state lasts for a certain length of time and the ability could be triggered at any moment while the state lasts). So we allow the player to decide at exactly which moment (while the state is satisfied) these abilities will be carried out. Effectively the player's will becomes the trigger for the ability. We call these abilities "manually triggered abilities." Because it is the player's action (or declaration) that activates the ability we give them the same priority as playing a card (to be exact we give it the same priority as playing a dominant) rather than the same priority as other triggers.

To review breifly priorities of carrying things out: Activating an ability takes priority over carrying out a triggered effect which takes priority over playing a card.

Unholy Writ is the quintessential manually triggered ability (it's actually the first card we ever identified as a manually triggered ability). This means it is a triggered ability (as referenced above) but it has the priority of playing a dominant. Abom is an optionally triggered ability (I get to choose if I trigger it vs I get to choose when I trigger a manually triggered ability) which has the priority of carrying out a triggered effect.

So based on the priority of carrying things out mentioned above, Abom takes priority over Unholy Writ.

And since Unholy Writ is ongoing, since Abom doesn't negate it, and since it doesn't have to be in play to be triggered, it can still be used after it is discarded until the end of the phase in which it is discarded.

Which means I agree with Bryon's rulings.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Master KChief · « **Reply #34 on:** November 02, 2009, 04:59:24 PM »

so, if unholy writ is an ongoing ability that can still be used once discarded, what is stopping a player from using the ability over and over and over during the battle phase?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #35 on:** November 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM »

I was wondering when somebody was going to bring that up - I believe that since becuse Writ says "Capture a hero" it can only be used once, and then its ability is fulfilled.

TimMierz · « **Reply #36 on:** November 02, 2009, 05:12:10 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 02, 2009, 05:09:53 PM

I was wondering when somebody was going to bring that up - I believe that since becuse Writ says "Capture a hero" it can only be used once, and then its ability is fulfilled.

Capture one Hero. Then discard it. It's not negated. So capture one Hero again. Can't discard it, but that's alright. Capture one Hero again....

Gabe · « **Reply #37 on:** November 02, 2009, 05:24:24 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 02, 2009, 04:59:24 PM

so, if unholy writ is an ongoing ability that can still be used once discarded, what is stopping a player from using the ability over and over and over during the battle phase?

Always trying to break a card aren't we...

The language on Unholy Writ requires you to choose a target, that target being a human Hero in battle. You don't get to choose a new target. You choose the target once. That's it.

Master KChief · « **Reply #38 on:** November 02, 2009, 06:36:07 PM »

i am choosing the target once. each time i activate it, and on each human i so desire in battle.

furthermore, there is nothing on the card whatsoever that limits its usage to one time, merely 'discard artifact after use'.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #39 on:** November 02, 2009, 07:39:30 PM »

Bingo-bango, UW needs play-as to "Discard to..."

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #40 on:** November 02, 2009, 07:48:36 PM »

.... or we could just stick with its ability not being available when it is no longer in play...

Master KChief · « **Reply #41 on:** November 02, 2009, 08:05:42 PM »

either one would sit fine with me. another poorly worded card, as usual...

crustpope · « **Reply #42 on:** November 02, 2009, 08:52:06 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 02, 2009, 07:39:30 PM

Bingo-bango, UW needs play-as to "Discard to..."

No it doesnt. I like it how it is. Its a manual trigger that you d/c after use. If it is already d/c ed then that part of it is fulfilled so it can target only one human hero. If it is played from the d/c pile then it still has its SA fulfilled. There is no endless loop of capturing human heros in the Battle phase.

No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.

Master KChief · « **Reply #43 on:** November 02, 2009, 08:59:34 PM »

it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #44 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:05:27 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on November 02, 2009, 08:52:06 PM

No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.

Interesting assessment. I guess I am just an idiot then.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #45 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:08:56 PM »

Quote

No need to errata a card that everyone knows how to play.

You mean no need to errata a card that most people won't figure out how to use correctly as worded

Quote from: Master KChief on November 02, 2009, 08:59:34 PM

it is not a 'cost: effect' card so there is no 'fulfilling'. as worded, you can spam it during the battle phase.

with MKC's assessment of the ability. As worded, I would rule it allows to super spamming for that phase. Why do we need to change it however? If you figure out a way to discard Unholy Writ in the battle phase without negating it, I say you should be able to mass capture everyone in battle.

SirNobody · « **Reply #46 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:09:36 PM »

Hey,

Unholy Writ activates during the prep phase when you activate it as your artifact. When you activate it you get to use it's ability, and because it's manually triggered you don't have to use it right away. So you can use it later. But you only get to use it once for each time it activates. You can't capture two characters with unholy Writ in one round any more than you can discard two characters with one Glittering Sword.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #47 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:13:02 PM »

That I can understand, but the idea that I can manually trigger it after it has been discarded makes no sense to me. However, as Crustpope implied, I am not too bright for not understanding this.

Master KChief · « **Reply #48 on:** November 02, 2009, 10:01:26 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 02, 2009, 09:09:36 PM

Hey,

Unholy Writ activates during the prep phase when you activate it as your artifact. When you activate it you get to use it's ability, and because it's manually triggered you don't have to use it right away. So you can use it later. But you only get to use it once for each time it activates. You can't capture two characters with unholy Writ in one round any more than you can discard two characters with one Glittering Sword.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

if this is true, then i suppose we cant spam captures on high places, even though its worded pretty much the same way.

SirNobody · « **Reply #49 on:** November 02, 2009, 11:01:40 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Master KChief on November 02, 2009, 10:01:26 PM

if this is true, then i suppose we cant spam captures on high places, even though its worded pretty much the same way.

Unholy Writ allows you to capture "a human hero" - singular.
High Places allows you to play "evil enhancements" - plural.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

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Author Topic: Question about Abom and unholy writ (Read 12764 times)

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