Author Topic: Question about Abom and unholy writ (Read 12775 times)

crustpope · « **on:** November 01, 2009, 10:00:32 PM »

I have two questions here about this scenario. My opponent has placed Abom in my territory. I have Unholy Writ up and my opponent attacks with Generous widow. He uses abom to d/c my Writ but I want to use writ to capture generous widow.

1.Which triggers first? (can I capture Generous widow before he Abom's my Unholy writ, and if so, why not?)

Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)

The Generous Widow
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: All players must discard two cards from hand and draw two cards. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT Female Human • Verse: Luke 21:4

Abomination of Desolation
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Greek, place in opponent's territory. Each time opponent draws cards (except during draw phase), you may discard a card in that territory except a Lost Soul. • Attributes: False Religious Practice, Limit of one in territory • Identifiers: OT, False Religious Practice, Limit of one in territory • Verse: Daniel 11:31 •

second question, Even if he gets to d/c my unholy writ first, can I still use it to capture generous widow since it was not negated, (simply discarded) and it took place in the same phase (battle phase)

Thanks

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #1 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:16:18 PM »

I believe in order for you to capture with uw, you have to let effects of inititive go through so the effect of the character would go, then that would cause abom and unholy to go. I believe. Please correct me if i am wrong. and for the second one, can you be more specific about that? What did he do to discard it?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:24:12 PM »

1. Generous Widow is not in battle for you to capture until her ability completes. When her ability completes, it triggers Abom which must then also complete before any other abilities can be inserted. In short, Abom before Writ.

2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #3 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:28:03 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 01, 2009, 10:24:12 PM

2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.

That is what I figured. My brain is hurting now...xp

lightningninja · « **Reply #4 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:30:45 PM »

I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:31:26 PM »

Unholy Writ has to wait for other abilities to complete before you can choose to use it. GW's discard/draw happens first. The draw from GW triggers Abom and that needs to complete before UW can be used.

I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.

crustpope · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:34:07 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 01, 2009, 10:24:12 PM

1. Generous Widow is not in battle for you to capture until her ability completes. When her ability completes, it triggers Abom which must then also complete before any other abilities can be inserted. In short, Abom before Writ.

Yes but as soon as her ability completes it SIMULTANEOUSLY fulfills the trigger for Unholy writ so why can I not use unholy writ at the same time that it is being discarded by my opponent uning the SA of Unholy Writ?

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 01, 2009, 10:24:12 PM

2. No, because a requirement of using UW is to Discard it. You can't Discard cards that are already in the Discard pile.

Yes, but the SA is still active since it has not been negated so why could I still not use it to capture Generous widow?

lightningninja · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:36:09 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 01, 2009, 10:31:26 PM

I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.

This is an interesting point, I forgot that Unholy Writ doesn't say "do x to do y." I'd agree with this.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:38:36 PM »

Since Abom is a trigger, there would be no time for you to actually use uw in between GW and Abom. So it would have to follow abom.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:39:53 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on November 01, 2009, 10:36:09 PM

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 01, 2009, 10:31:26 PM
I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.
This is an interesting point, I forgot that Unholy Writ doesn't say "do x to do y." I'd agree with this.

I disagree with it.

UW is not an ongoing ability that remains active until negated. UW is a "may" and an instant ability. I don't see how that would not require the card to be present in order to be activated. It seems more intuitive that it functions like a triggered ability, and you can't pull the trigger if you are not holding the gun.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #10 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:41:16 PM »

lol I like that anonally. XD

crustpope · « **Reply #11 on:** November 01, 2009, 10:56:25 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on November 01, 2009, 10:30:45 PM

I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.

Ok if you say he is responding to his own action, I will buy that...I dont LIKE it, but I will buy it. I think these type of ruling guidelines should be "officiallly" codified somewhere though so that when we find conflicting triggers like this we can have some way to rule on them.

crustpope · « **Reply #12 on:** November 01, 2009, 11:01:10 PM »

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 01, 2009, 10:38:36 PM

Since Abom is a trigger, there would be no time for you to actually use uw in between GW and Abom. So it would have to follow abom.

Yes Abom is a trigger, But putting a Hero into battle is also the trigger for UW and that trigger happened first. It just so happens that by drawing cards, I also trigger Abom and I am asking what the guidelines are for resolving these triggers, which in reality seem to be triggered at the same time, can be ruled upon for future games.

So far I like LN answer the best but that is like saying I like slapped in the face more than I like having my toenails pulled out with rusty pliers

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #13 on:** November 01, 2009, 11:05:33 PM »

That is just like trying to use a dominant to interrupt inititive. You cannot do that. Just like trying to use effects in the middle of other effects. It just doesn't work.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** November 01, 2009, 11:08:16 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 01, 2009, 10:39:53 PM

UW is not an ongoing ability that remains active until negated....

So according to this theory, you're saying that I must choose to use UW when the Hero first enters battle since the abilty of UW isn't active and ongoing? I'm not allowed to use it later in battle after my EC has been defeated?

Quote from: lightningninja on November 01, 2009, 10:30:45 PM

I don't think you can. He gets to respond his own action before you can, since both A-bom and UW are triggers.

Who's responding to their own action? I assume it's the defender who has UW, not the person who owns GW and Abom. If that's the case the controller of UW hasn't caused any actions to be performed yet, it's all been abilities controlled by the rescuer.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2009, 11:11:01 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 01, 2009, 10:31:26 PM

Unholy Writ has to wait for other abilities to complete before you can choose to use it. GW's discard/draw happens first. The draw from GW triggers Abom and that needs to complete before UW can be used.

I can't see any reason why UW couldn't still capture GW since it wasn't negated. UW is not a cost/effect ability that requires you to discard the Artifact to capture the Hero.

But doesn't the fact that a hero enter battle satisfy the condition for Unholy Writ BEFORE GW's ability goes off? thus a hero is available to use writ on, and as that is happening I still have to draw 2 cards, which would trigger Abom but UW would already have went into effect and discarded...that makes the most sense to me...

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2009, 11:33:56 PM »

I thought you couldn't use another ability in the middle of another which is basically what that one is doing. I understand what you are trying to say. I could see this going either way. $:-\$

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:33:06 AM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on November 01, 2009, 11:11:01 PM

But doesn't the fact that a hero enter battle satisfy the condition for Unholy Writ BEFORE GW's ability goes off?

I think the confusing thing here is "Redemption Time" vs. "Real Time" (great explanation Tim).

In real time the first thing that happens in the Hero is physically placed in battle so it would appear that UW goes first.

In "Redemption time" these all happen at the same moment:

The Hero is placed in battle.
The Heroes abilities complete.
Abilities controled by the rescuing player that are trigger by the previous two items complete.

Those things are all tied to the same moment in Redemption time but they happen in a specific order, otherwise we'd have Mayhem!

Here's an example that I think we'll all agree on:

Green brigade prophet enters battle. The rescuer has Hidden Treasures active. The defender has Unholy Writ active. Don't we all agree that the rescuer gets to use Hidden Treasures before the defender can capture the Hero with Unholy Writ?

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2009, 09:59:28 AM »

That's the case of one artifact being triggered at the same time as the other. both the hero for Unholy Writ and a prophet for Hidden Treasures. As you bring your hero into battle, I should be able to use Writ as you use HT, but there's no Enhancement for your hero to play the enhancement on. I am all for hero abilities to complete before defender reacting, but not for territory cards or artifacts when other triggers in effect happen first.

Further: I do not understand how Tim's explanation of Redemption Time vs. Real Time applies here. To me that seems an argument for who to gets to negate who and when...

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2009, 10:37:22 AM »

It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.

The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.

Kevin Shride

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #20 on:** November 02, 2009, 10:50:21 AM »

again I agree with special abilities on Heroes, but I don't understand why other abilities that are triggered by it immediately follow. triggered abilities from other sources (artifacts, covenants, TC) are not gained abilities, they are separate and should be treated as such...Explain..

crustpope · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2009, 11:17:37 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Shride on November 02, 2009, 10:37:22 AM

It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.

The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.

Kevin Shride

This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.

So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?

browarod · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2009, 11:59:27 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Shride on November 02, 2009, 10:37:22 AM

It's the same as playing a dominant. You can't play Christian Martyr on a Hero in battle until after it's special ability is completely carried out. Once Ethiopian Treasurer comes into battle, you have to let him play the first enhancement. Then (and only then) can you play CM.

The same applies here with Unholy Writ. The Hero's ability (and all abilities that trigger as a result of that) must complete before any other play can be made.

I disagree. The ET example doesn't really apply here because the enhancement you play with ET is not a trigger, it's just the proper resolving of his effect. This situation involves 2 cards that trigger seemingly simultaneously. The hero enters battle, each person draws, and her effect ends. At that point, the conditions for Writ and Abom are both met (hero in battle, and opponent drawing outside of draw phase). As you explained above, cards cannot be played/activated until other cards finish (in this case the hero's SA). As such, Abom's trigger cannot be pulled until the completion of the hero's effect, which is also when Writ's trigger is pulled, so neither of them is pulled "first". They both trigger at the same time, so the real question should primarily be which takes effect first, and then if Writ can still activate after being discarded but not negated only if Abom wins in the initiative race.

At least, that's what I see when I look at this situation.

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #23 on:** November 02, 2009, 11:59:46 AM »

Quote

This I understand, but we still have the outstanding question of whether you can still use UW if it has already been Abom'ed since Abom only d/c's the card and does not negate the SA of that card.

Since Unholy Writ is not an ongoing ability, but a one-time use ability, its ability should not remain after it has been discarded. If it's not in play, you can't use it.

Quote

So, speaking from a judges persepctive, are we going to use the "responding to own action" to unravel seemingly contradictory and simultaneous triggers from here on out?

There are no contradictory or simultaneous triggers here. Generous Widow's ability TRIGGERS Abom's ability, at which point it must be carried out completely; Abom is waiting around for another ability to make it trigger, and GW does just that. Nothing is TRIGGERING Unholy Writ's ability; its ability is at the choice of the owner, who cannot make that choice to use it while another ability is activating.

Kevin Shride

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** November 02, 2009, 12:03:49 PM »

So the fact that Writ is a choice effect means I cannot use it in this situation, AND I can't use it's effect after it's discarded even though it wasn't negated...if this is the ruling I officially hate it. It's turning Abom into a reusable DoN for non-ongoing artifacts.

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Author Topic: Question about Abom and unholy writ (Read 12775 times)

browarod

browarod