Author Topic: Question about a TeP card: Woman at the Well (Read 4980 times)

soul seeker · « **on:** August 14, 2009, 12:40:36 PM »

What I do know is that it is a female hero with a John reference...her ability is along the lines of look through opponent's deck and pull out a lost soul and a human evil character.
My question:
does she have to pull out both to complete the ability or against certain decks (a demon deck) she can just pull out a lost soul? are the two abilities connected?

If she can, then I know of a couple of cards that just got a lot more playing time in my decks.

Smokey · « **Reply #1 on:** August 14, 2009, 12:42:21 PM »

Name: The woman as the well
To answer your question, if there is no human EC (or lost soul) It is my understanding she can grab one, and not the other because of the "do as much as you can ruling", but if they are both there you must grab both.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:02:30 AM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 14, 2009, 12:42:21 PM

Name: Professoralstad's new favorite hero
To answer your question, if there is no human EC (or lost soul) It is my understanding she can grab one, and not the other because of the "do as much as you can ruling", but if they are both there you must grab both.

Fixed.

I see no reason why she couldn't do one without the other if there is a lack of one of the types. I can use Vengeance to discard one site without discarding another or KotW, and I can use Zeal to discard only one EC. Should be the same thing.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:03:35 AM »

But like Smokey said, if both are available, you must take both. Zeal works that way.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:08:12 AM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on August 15, 2009, 12:03:35 AM

But like Smokey said, if both are available, you must take both. Zeal works that way.

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 15, 2009, 12:02:30 AM

I see no reason why she couldn't do one without the other if there is a lack of one of the types. I can use Vengeance to discard one site without discarding another or KotW, and I can use Zeal to discard only one EC. Should be the same thing.

I know...

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:09:18 AM »

You knew..........

Bryon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:45:56 AM »

Right. Do both if you can, as much as you can otherwise.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2009, 07:31:21 AM »

Need I contribute my opinion?

Smokey · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2009, 01:31:35 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 15, 2009, 07:31:21 AM

Need I contribute my opinion?

Nah, I won the thread with the first post

.

soul seeker · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:27:52 PM »

Okay, thanks for the answer guys. It was played the right way in my game...it was just devastating to me and I wanted to be sure. Like I said, one of 2 cards are going to become popular in my decks. She's got to stop!

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:06:19 AM »

Jerusalem Tower and Hezekiah's Ring are nice now.

Smokey · « **Reply #11 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:10:34 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 16, 2009, 12:06:19 AM

Jerusalem Tower and Hezekiah's Ring are nice now.

They're both prevents, and Her sa is CBN.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** August 16, 2009, 12:33:23 AM »

Quote from: Smokey on August 16, 2009, 12:10:34 AM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 16, 2009, 12:06:19 AM
Jerusalem Tower and Hezekiah's Ring are nice now.

They're both prevents, and Her sa is CBN.

Precisely. Behold the power of The Woman at the Well.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2009, 08:04:33 AM »

Maybe Standing in the Gap will be more popular from now on.

soul seeker · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:43:33 PM »

New can of worms:
How are they prevents and not protects? Those were the two cards I was thinking of. Doesn't Jerusalem Tower protect your deck in addition to preventing your opponent? Kind of like Household Idols is both prevent and protect? This is disturbing if those two cards can't do what they are designed to do: PROTECT your deck.

Smokey · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:47:59 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on August 16, 2009, 04:43:33 PM

New can of worms:
How are they prevents and not protects? Those were the two cards I was thinking of. Doesn't Jerusalem Tower protect your deck in addition to preventing your opponent? Kind of like Household Idols is both prevent and protect? This is disturbing if those two cards can't do what they are designed to do: PROTECT your deck.

If you go by wording, it would seem they would be a protect, however they are both ruled as being prevents. Card design means nothing (split altar). Household Idols is an ignore, not a prevent and protect. This might be because of them being viewed as overpowered if they were a protect, maybe there was a combo that could have come about if your deck was protected we are not considering.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:54:18 PM »

I don't think that's the case; just look at the wording of JT: "No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled." If it said, "Cards in your deck cannot be removed by an opponent..." it would be a protect, but the way it's worded affects the remover, not the removee.

frisian9 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:56:11 PM »

Just a minute - part of the point of drawing out a lost soul is having to give them an EC to defend it. Isn't that a cost that must be paid in order to get the benefit? I don't believe this is a "do as much as you can" situation.

Mike

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:58:14 PM »

There's no "to" or "if" in her ability, so I don't think it's a cost/gain thing.

And darn them if they don't have a LS by the time she attacks anyway!

Smokey · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:01:32 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 16, 2009, 04:54:18 PM

I don't think that's the case; just look at the wording of JT: "No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled." If it said, "Cards in your deck cannot be removed by an opponent..." it would be a protect, but the way it's worded affects the remover, not the removee.

From the REG:
All opponents are prevented from removing cards from holder’s draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:05:51 PM »

Quote

The Woman at the Well
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search opponent’s deck for a Lost Soul and a human Evil Character and put them in opponent’s territory. Cannot be negated.

This doesn't appear to be a cost/benefit ability. I'm not sure why you wouldn't complete as much as possible. For example, vs a demon defense you should be able to just pull out a Lost Soul if there are no human Evil Characters available.

Quote

Jerusalem Tower
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled. • Play As: All opponents are prevented from removing cards from holder’s draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled.

JT is a prevent, not a protect. It does nothing against cannot be negated cards like Harvest Time, Seeker of the Lost and The Woman at the Well. Then again it does virtually nothing in every game I've ever seen it played so nothing really changes here. /end rant about how worthless JT is.

Quote

Hezekiah’s Signet Ring
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: No opponent may search any draw pile or discard pile. • Play As: Opponents are prevented from searching any draw pile or discard pile.

Once again, a prevent, not a protect.

Quote

Standing in the Gap
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set your Hero aside for up to 5 turns. While that Hero is set aside, protect your hand, deck, multi-color Sites, and good Fortresses from opponent’s evil cards.

Finally we have a card that protects your deck, but it doesn't help against HT, SotL or TWatW.

frisian9 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:12:33 PM »

At present, I only state that my personal opinion is that it is a cost/benefit. If I found no human EC in my search, I would not take the LS out. If I had wanted it to be an "as much as you can", I would have worded the SA to say "Search opponent’s deck for a Lost Soul and a human Evil Character (if possible) and put them in opponent’s territory. Cannot be negated."

Isn't "and" true if both A is true and B is true? Isn't that the straightforward interpretation? What the "do as much as you can" phrase does is add to the meaning, something a new player would not know.

Mike

frisian9 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:54:24 PM »

I can see how "do as much of you can" works with "interrupt, draw 3, and may play next enhancement" type cards. Notice that these card types don't effect anyone else, so have no cost. However, if there is a cost to several abilities connected by "and", there should be no "do as much as you can" in my opinion.

Mike

ejberkenpas22 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2009, 06:05:34 PM »

this has gotten really complex. I'm sure we haven't even scratched the surface on all the cards that can be played as "do as much as you can". It seems like there must first be a discrepancy between whether a card is involving your cards or your opponents cards, and then a strict rule must be made about whether you do as much as you can, or if you cannot do it all you can't do any. Reach of Desperation, and Books of Hozai are examples of cards that only effect your cards...you are drawing from your deck. Jephthah and Woman at the Well are two cards that effect your opponents cards. So then for those cards that only effect your cards there doesn't need to be any new rules set in place. But for those cards like Jephthah and Woman at the Well either you do as much as you can, or you don't do anything if you can't do it all. And then that rule must be used for EVERY card like that no exceptions. That is how I see this going because like I said this is getting really complex.

Smokey · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2009, 07:41:10 PM »

While we're giving opinions...

The Woman at the Well
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search opponent’s deck for a Lost Soul and a human Evil Character and put them in opponent’s territory. Cannot be negated.

I see it at "Search opponent's deck for a Lost Soul and human evil Character", I look through my opponents deck, there is no human.
"and put them in opponent's territory." Because there was no human evil Character, I'll do as much as I can and place the lost soul in their territory.

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Author Topic: Question about a TeP card: Woman at the Well (Read 4980 times)