Author Topic: Provisions (Read 4635 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** July 29, 2011, 04:53:47 PM »

Provisions (Ki)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set Hero aside for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards and may choose the Evil Character his opponent's uses to block Hero's next rescue attempt. • Errata: Set aside Hero for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards, and hero gains the ability (for Hero’s next rescue attempt only) “Holder may choose the Evil Character opponent uses to block” [choose opponent]. • Identifiers: OT, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:20 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

Two Possessed by Demons (FF)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set any 2 humans aside until Son of God is played. • Play As: Set aside any 2 humans until Son of God is played. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Matthew 8:28 •

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 25, 2011, 12:24:26 AM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 24, 2011, 11:27:42 PM
By default, your good set-aside cards target only your own Heroes, but can target Evil Characters of any player. Likewise, your evil set-aside cards can target only your own Evil Characters, but can target Heroes of any player.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on July 24, 2011, 10:58:49 PM
... provisions must be used on the hero it is activated on.

1.) Have we been playing Provisions wrong since forever? Can it only target the hero that it is activated on?

2.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons to set my own hero's aside outside of battle?

3.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons in battle to set aside my opponents evil characters?

soul seeker · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:00:50 PM »

1. the way it reads, I would assume yes to In Battle. i.e. if Provisions is played in battle, then it must set aside a green hero. I am assuming (and have played this way) that it works as a typical Set Aside outside of battle: must have green hero present but any hero in your territory can be set aside.

2. If this question is can this enhancement be played outside of battle, then I venture that the answer is no. I will admit that we should check the section under set asides in the rulebook (which I don't have with me) because of the special game rule of playing set asides outside of battle.

3. Judging by the wording and the Play As, I would say this is a yes, you can.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:07:56 PM »

REG
General Description
Set-aside cards are described elsewhere (see Set Aside a Character, Set-Aside Enhancements, and Set-Aside in the glossary). Set-aside cards must include the words “set aside”. Set-aside cards are generally used to increase the abilities of the character(s) being set aside, but may also add special abilities to one or more specified cards. Unlike cards in the categories Increase or Decrease Ability and Greater Worth, whose abilities only last until the end of the phase, the effects a character gains while in a set-aside area remain with the character when he returns to the Field of Play until the character is removed from the game, returned to hand, or placed in a draw or discard pile. Moreover, the gained effect cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated.

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside
How to Use
Set-aside cards may be played on any character you control in play with matching brigade. Set-aside cards remain on the character in the set-aside area until the character is returned to the field of play. When you set aside your opponent's card during a battle, after the battle you must put the set-aside enhancement with the card you set aside. The character can return during any preparation phase, unless the set-aside card has a specified endpoint. The set-aside card is then discarded.

Played In Battle
During a Battle Phase, you must follow the rules of initiative to play any enhancement, including a set-aside enhancement.

Played Outside Battle
A set-aside enhancement may be played on a character in your territory, provided the enhancement is played on your turn and it is not played during the Battle Phase, and targets your own character (i.e, it sets your own character aside).

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:09:03 PM »

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside > How to Use
Targets of Ability
By default, a set-aside card must target a card in play. For example, you cannot set a character aside from your hand unless a card states otherwise, nor can you set a character aside that is already set aside.

By default, your good set-aside cards target only your own Heroes, but can target Evil Characters of any player. Likewise, your evil set-aside cards can target only your own Evil Characters, but can target Heroes of any player.

Set-aside cards do not interrupt other abilities. (So, for example, no card may be set aside if it is being discarded. If a character has been set aside, it is out of the Field of Play and cannot be affected by special abilities unless the card states that it may. Set-aside cards may not be played on your opponent’s characters unless the set-aside card states that you may.

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside > How to Use
Duration
If a set-aside card specifies that a character must be set-aside for a specific number of turns, then you must leave the character set-aside for that number of turns. The character returns during the Preparation Phase of the turn when the final counter of all set-aside cards on that character is added (as specified on the set-aside card).

If a set-aside card does not specify a duration limit, then you may bring the character(s) back during any Preparation Phase of yours. You may only return characters from your set-aside area during your Preparation Phase. Keep this in mind when setting aside an Evil Character. You may need that Evil Character to block during an opponent’s turn.

Once a character is set aside, you will add counters to the character during each subsequent Upkeep Phase of yours.

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside
Default Conditions
• A converted character retains special abilities gained in set-aside prior to being converted. See Convert to determine the conditions that govern when and which special abilities on converted characters work.

• The special ability gained in set-aside is only taken away when a character is removed from the game, returned to hand, or placed in a draw or discard pile.

• The special ability gained in set-aside cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated when the character enters the Field of Battle.

• Cards are set aside in their owners’ respective set-aside areas

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:09:35 PM »

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside
Special Conditions
• Cards in the Field of Battle may be set aside prior to the end of the battle. However, a set-aside may only be played during battle when you have initiative, the set-aside card is not prevented, and the characters in battle are not losing by removal (e.g., discard, capture, convert, etc.).

• Two or more set-aside cards may not be played simultaneously unless specified otherwise.

• If an interrupt card targets the “last enhancement” or “interrupts the battle” then you can interrupt a set-aside if it was the last card played. However, if it interrupts all special abilities in play, then it can’t affect the set-aside card because it is no longer in play.

• If your character is banded into a battle by your opponent, you cannot play a set-aside to pull it out of battle. The rulebook says that you must direct the effect of the set-aside ability to a character you own and currently control (see Set-Aside Enhancements).

• A character set aside and targeted for discard can be healed. The healing is done after the character has been taken from the set-aside area. The healed character is placed in the owner’s territory.

• Ongoing abilities from the second rescue attempt initiated by Ambush the City (Ki) stop at the end of the rescue attempt and do not continue in the battle that was set aside.

• If a Hero was previously a banding card, each Gathering of Angels (Wa) card adds an additional Hero that may be banded into battle. Multiple Gathering of Angels (Wa) cards may be played on the same Hero.

• If Noah (Pa) is used to make a rescue attempt after Noah's Sons (Pa) has been set-aside with Provisions (Ki), Noah (Pa) activates the special ability of Provisions (Ki) indirectly, exhausting the special ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:11:12 PM »

1. It says "Set hero," not "Set a hero," so I have always ruled that it must be the hero played on.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

The default that you quoted earlier about how evil set-asides affect heroes is not relevant, since the card says otherwise.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:12:41 PM »

1. Have we been playing Provisions wrong since forever? Can it only target the hero that it is activated on?

According to the Spiritual Warfare ruling you have to target the hero that the card is played on because of the wording of the card. Inconsistency?

Spiritual Warfare (AW)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero ignores all human Evil Characters. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Ephesians 6:12 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Rare)

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:20:08 PM »

3.) My question concerns what the REG states here:

Instant Special Abilities > Set-Aside > How to Use

By default, your good set-aside cards target only your own Heroes, but can target Evil Characters of any player. Likewise, your evil set-aside cards can target only your own Evil Characters, but can target Heroes of any player.

According to the wording here (or my lack of understanding) I can only target any of my characters and my opponents heros (aka not thier evil characters). Is this true?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:23:18 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 29, 2011, 05:11:12 PM

The default that you quoted earlier about how evil set-asides affect heroes is not relevant, since the card says otherwise.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #9 on:** July 29, 2011, 09:43:03 PM »

tl;dr

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** July 29, 2011, 10:12:04 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 29, 2011, 04:53:47 PM

1.) Have we been playing Provisions wrong since forever? Can it only target the hero that it is activated on?

2.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons to set my own hero's aside outside of battle?

3.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons in battle to set aside my opponents evil characters?

These were the questions he asked.

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2011, 10:38:49 PM »

The last thing I heard from an Elder (I forget who) regarding set asides was this:
-Set asides can only target your appropriate characters (hero, evil character, human, etc.) if played outside battle.
-Set asides can target any appropriate characters (hero, evil character, human, etc.) if played during battle.

In the case of Provisions, since it says "set hero aside", the only appropriate target is the hero that uses it regardless of where/when Provisions is played.

Two Possessed by Demons says "any 2 humans" so during battle it can set aside any humans but outside battle it is limited by the rule above and can only target your humans.

INE, though, and I'm not 100% sure of this.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2011, 10:48:37 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 29, 2011, 10:12:04 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 29, 2011, 04:53:47 PM
1.) Have we been playing Provisions wrong since forever? Can it only target the hero that it is activated on?

2.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons to set my own hero's aside outside of battle?

3.) Can I use Two Possessed by Demons in battle to set aside my opponents evil characters?

These were the questions he asked.

I am aware, but what followed was 9001 posts of a bunch of data and no interpretation.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2011, 01:29:04 AM »

just putting it out there to help anyone with questions-

here's mine...

Have we been playing this wrong the whole time?

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2011, 04:39:50 AM »

How have you been playing it? I've always only used it to set aside the hero I play it on. If you've been using it otherwise, then yes you have been playing it wrong.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2011, 08:54:01 AM »

Quote from: browarod on July 29, 2011, 10:38:49 PM

The last thing I heard from an Elder (I forget who) regarding set asides was this:
-Set asides can only target your appropriate characters (hero, evil character, human, etc.) if played outside battle.
-Set asides can target any appropriate characters (hero, evil character, human, etc.) if played during battle.

In the case of Provisions, since it says "set hero aside", the only appropriate target is the hero that uses it regardless of where/when Provisions is played.

Two Possessed by Demons says "any 2 humans" so during battle it can set aside any humans but outside battle it is limited by the rule above and can only target your humans.

INE, though, and I'm not 100% sure of this.

I'm 100% sure, even if I end up being wrong.

Quote from: browarod on July 30, 2011, 04:39:50 AM

How have you been playing it? I've always only used it to set aside the hero I play it on. If you've been using it otherwise, then yes you have been playing it wrong.

QFT

Seeing as I already gave the same answers as you, I am guessing that he will only be satisfied if an elder replies.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2011, 09:16:28 AM »

Quote from: browarod on July 29, 2011, 10:38:49 PM

How have you been playing it? I've always only used it to set aside the hero I play it on. If you've been using it otherwise, then yes you have been playing it wrong.

I think he is asking because people have been playing Provisions as any other set aside; that is you are able to activate Provisions on one character and set aside another character. By "people" I guess I mean everyone I have ever seen play this card including way too many encounters with that card at major tournaments (e.g., Regionals/Nationals).

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 30, 2011, 08:54:01 AM

Seeing as I already gave the same answers as you, I am guessing that he will only be satisfied if an elder replies.

As this would be a relatively major re-ruling, an elder's response would be appreciated. Just as it was when it was decided that you could no longer discard an angel to chamber to satisfy the I ams. No offense to Browarod or YMT, but if they (or I or Wild Bill or any non-elder) were the one to post (what ended up being) the ultimate ruling on that issue, people would have been asking for the same type of elder clarification.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2011, 09:31:07 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on July 30, 2011, 09:16:28 AM

No offense to Browarod or YMT, but if they (or I or Wild Bill or any non-elder) were the one to post (what ended up being) the ultimate ruling on that issue, people would have been asking for the same type of elder clarification.

No offense taken. I already hinted to the fact that I may indeed be wrong.

I meant my post literally. Obviously he has ruled the way that you are suggesting, so anyone else that posted in agreement with what browarod and I have stated would not make a difference in this thread at this point. The only closure can come from Elders.

I was actually trying to indirectly prod an Elder into responding.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2011, 09:42:09 AM »

Actually, I may be misinterpreting what is being said anyway. I would rule differently whether Provisions was played in battle or out of battle. I was assuming RTS meant in battle, since that is where Two Possessed is usually played.

If Provisions is used in the Prep Phase, for instance, then I would rule it like any other set-aside, since I believe most of them just say "set hero aside."

I know this may sound contradictory, but I think that the rules of battle need to be different.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 30, 2011, 09:56:48 AM »

I agree that you sound contradictory.

But you have a good excuse because I think that the rules of interpreting enhancements are contradictory. When a regular enhancement says "Blah blah blah Hero" or "Hero yada yada yada" they mean that one specific hero who played the enhancement. When a set aside says the same thing it means any hero.

Since YMT and I are saying exactly the same (contradictory) things, I am also throwing this out for elder confirmation.

If I am correct I would also like the elders to comment on whether or not this interpretive distinction still exists for set asides played in battle.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** July 30, 2011, 10:26:28 AM »

Interestingly, the rulebook reference that we have always gone by specifically says "set a character aside." I would argue that the way we have been playing set asides outside of battle may indeed be incorrect. Perhaps those old set asides (that no one uses anyway) should only target the hero they are activated on after all. It is possible that the rulebook was a misprint, but for consistency we may just have to rule that "Set hero aside" is indeed different than "Set a hero aside" both inside and outside of battle.

From the rulebook:

Quote

Set-aside enhancements
A set-aside enhancement has the phrase “set a (type of character) aside” in its special ability. A set-aside enhancement can be played on a character of matching brigade in your territory during your Preparation Phase or Discard Phase. Its special ability activates even though it is played outside of battle. You may also play them in battle according to the rules of initiative. You can direct the effect of the set-aside card to any character you own and currently control. You may set aside a character with multiple set-aside cards if they are played at the same time.

I never really realized that I was ruling outside and inside differently in those cases ("Set hero aside") until just now. How weird.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:08:48 AM »

Again, I've always ruled "set hero aside" as only being able to target the hero that uses the enhancement. I really don't know how you guys have thought differently, lol.

I mean, I doubt anyone treats "You may discard Uzzah" as "You may discard an Uzzah" so why would this be any different?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:17:21 AM »

Quote from: browarod on July 30, 2011, 11:08:48 AM

Again, I've always ruled "set hero aside" as only being able to target the hero that uses the enhancement. I really don't know how you guys have thought differently, lol.

I mean, I doubt anyone treats "You may discard Uzzah" as "You may discard an Uzzah" so why would this be any different?

No, we are talking about set aside cards specifically, which have traditionally been ruled as stated in my quote above your post - that they may direct the effect to any character you own and control. Old set-aside cards, like Stirring the Water and Iron Pan (no, the other one), say "Set hero aside," but they have been used as the rulebook quote stated.

However, the rulebook references "Set a hero aside" for this exception, so the traditional ruling may have been incorrect. I think that is what RTSManiac was asking in the first place, I just didn't see what he was getting at.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:21:38 AM »

Quote from: browarod on July 30, 2011, 11:08:48 AM

I mean, I doubt anyone treats "You may discard Uzzah" as "You may discard an Uzzah" so why would this be any different?

How about because cards actually refer "A hero" vs. "Hero" and cards don't ever reference "an Uzzah" vs. "Uzzah".

And, for the record, you would have to treat them different. If Uzzah read "an Uzzah", you would be able to discard any Uzzah in play to satisfy the protection.

Thanks for trying.

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2011, 11:26:07 AM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on July 30, 2011, 11:21:38 AM

How about because cards actually refer "A hero" vs. "Hero" and cards don't ever reference "an Uzzah" vs. "Uzzah".

And, for the record, you would have to treat them different. If Uzzah read "an Uzzah", you would be able to discard any Uzzah in play to satisfy the protection.

Thanks for trying.

So? What's your point?

What I said is that you don't treat "Uzzah" as "an Uzzah" on Uzzah so you shouldn't treat "hero" as "a hero" on any enhancement either. Yes, if Uzzah did say "an" then he would be rather broken. That was my point. Way to swing and miss with that one, lol.

Thanks for reading? Except that it doesn't seem like you did.

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Author Topic: Provisions (Read 4635 times)

browarod

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