Cactus Game Design Message Boards

So if I provision Jacob and I Rescue with him, he then bands to Seraph, does the set-aside effect kick in before Seraph's band ability?

unfortunate

So if you use a character with a weapon who bands you can draw 2 play an enhancement use the enhancements ability and then band in another character with another weapon to draw 2 more and play another enhancement?

Do I get to choose the blocker if I set aside AutO and then later exchange in battle for a judge?

Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 14, 2012, 11:28:38 AM

Do I get to choose the blocker if I set aside AutO and then later exchange in battle for a judge?

Yes. The exchange happens first, then the CTB.

Can the CTB activate though? AutO is no longer in battle when the CTB could activate.

I believe at the T2 only I had this ruled against me (but that was with my failure of a lamenting deck anyway, so it really didn't matter).

Once a Hero enters battle I'm not aware of anything short of finding a way to insert an "end the battle" ability that would keep provision from activating. The CTB has to fall in the correct order of abilities when it completes, which is at the end, so a number of other things might happen first. The provisioned Hero being in play isn't relevant since the ability activated. The holder still gets to CTB.

Provisions (Ki)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set Hero aside for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards and may choose the Evil Character his opponent's uses to block Hero's next rescue attempt. • Errata: Set aside Hero for 2 turns. On return, holder may draw 2 cards, and hero gains the ability (for Hero’s next rescue attempt only) “Holder may choose the Evil Character opponent uses to block” [choose opponent]. • Identifiers: OT, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:20 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Uncommon)

I agree that the being in play isn't really relevant but I think the character resetting in deck is.  The character goes to deck and resets (loses its gained abilities) before the CTB ability gets to be used.  By the time you get to the CTB ability in the order of operations, the character doesn't have a CTB ability.  Even though all the abilities "activate" at once they don't really when it comes to carrying them out.

I counter your logical argument with the fact that Assyrian Survivor and similar cards are put in opponent's LoB regardless of whether the effect that defeated them sent them to deck, discard, hand, or even removed them from the game.  They are plucked from those locations after the battle has been resolved and their placement in LoB continues.

I also counter with a card brought up in this thread: AuTO.  His protection of Gideon very clearly continues when Gideon is exchanged in, regardless of the location exchanged to.  If AuTO goes to hand, deck, or discard, the protection doesn't just 'stop' because he was 'reset'.  It continues because the ability was already active.

When activated, abilities go off or continue regardless of where the card goes (except in the cases of "While in Play").  While you are correct that cards 'reset' when they hit the locations mentioned, abilities continue regardless.  In addition to my examples above, does Moses's FBTN stop if he is hit with Invoking Terror?  Does Joseph stop protecting Sons of Jacob if he is hit with Stone of Thebez?  Does Samson lose Site Access just because Secret Name went to hand, deck, or discard?

The answer to all of those cases is 'no', and show conclusively that abilities do not 'reset' just because the card they are originally on 'resets'.  So in this case, the CTB ability on Provisions is 'active' and waiting its turn to go off (after everything else completes).  It doesn't matter where the card that caused it goes, so long as the ability is not negated (impossible for Provisions, as it is a CBN gained ability once gained) and the battle doesn't go to Battle Resolution first.

Your example of DD and a Zaccheus vs FBTN is not the same as this case, because you could still do the search first, if you so desired, by banding him in before the FBTN.  It would just be undone.  (This may be useful if you need to shuffle your deck, or check what's in there).  For mass banding, the rule is that you actually choose the order they enter, so he will either be negated or prevented, but it has nothing to do with 'resetting' the ability.

The real question in all of this is: What kind of crazy person provisions their AuTO?   (I know, makes sense if he has WWW, but you lost two turns of D2)

Deborah's Directive (FF)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 4 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and band any number of O.T. human Heroes into battle. Cannot be negated by an evil card. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Judges 4:6 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs

srry, no Zaccheus.

My point with mass banding was to show that with multiple abilities activating, even though they are all "active" at the same time, they don't actually become active at the same time.  One ability that is earlier in the order of abilities can stop another ability like Moses or Zach from becoming active.

While you are correct that cards 'reset' when they hit the locations mentioned, abilities continue regardless.  In addition to my examples above, does Moses's FBTN stop if he is hit with Invoking Terror?  Does Joseph stop protecting Sons of Jacob if he is hit with Stone of Thebez?  Does Samson lose Site Access just because Secret Name went to hand, deck, or discard?
The answer to all of those cases is 'no', and show conclusively that abilities do not 'reset' just because the card they are originally on 'resets'. 

This misses the point.  Of course activated abilities don't reset just because the card leaves play but you are comparing apples and oranges.  You're examples are of abilities that have activated and resolved where I'm talking about a situation where that is not true.  Even with your Auto example, the protect Gideon ability activates before the exchange so thats fine.  I'm not saying that an activated ability would stop because the character was reset.  I am saying that when characters reset, they lose all gained abilities and if this happens before the ability is active then how can they use an ability they no longer have?  For your Moses and Joseph examples to be relevant here they would have to be more like this:

I play Deb's Directive and band in all your heros including Moses and Joseph and my warrior class judge with 2k horses on him.  I choose my warrior class judge to activate first and play Samson's Sacrifice on him to discard all the heros.  Does Moses still activate and negate Samson's Sacrifice?  Is Joseph protected?  I would think no to both.  Would it matter if Joseph or Moses were CBN?  I don't think so because it is not trying to prevent those abilities, it just discards them before they get a chance to carry out their abilities. 

What if I have used Gathering of Angels on my warrior class judge?  He enters battle, plays Samson's Sacrifice and then still gets to band in another hero? 

I think the difference with Assyrian Survivor is that there is no question that the ability is fully activated; it just has an ongoing ability that is waiting to complete. 

With the Warrior's Spear ruling, it may not be in battle but it is still in play so I'm not sure that is the same.  I seem to remember that part of the logic used in that ruling was that the card was still in play to activate after withdrawing to territory.

I understand your position on this, but you're also comparing 'apples to oranges'.  Your example of mass bands doesn't actually have to do with this case, because as I've pointed out, you choose who enters first in the case of mass banding.

It actually is the same because in both cases their is a list of multiple abilities "activating" at the same time but then get carried out in a specific order.  It doesn't matter that you choose which order it happens for the band; they still have to happen one at a time.

Prevention and Negation happen normally, and by the normal way..............Once an ability has begun, which on characters/their weapons/their gained abilities is the moment they enter battle for all abilities (activate at the same time, but there is a specific order to resolve), they will resolve unless something negates them.

They don't really activate at the same time or there is some inconsistent wording.  We know that if you mass band Captain and The Strong Angel that Captain will prevent The Strong Angel and allow the banding.  But if they both activate at the same time and their abilities have begun as you say then how can Captain prevent The Strong Angel?  From the REG in definition of prevent:

Prevent is a special ability used to preempt (stop) another card’s special ability.  In order for a prevent card to stop the special ability of another card, it must be played before that card. A prevent card is unlike interrupt and negate cards because it cannot undo a special ability on a card that has already been played. ......... This ability stops things that have not yet happened. It cannot undo things that have already happened.

That seems pretty clear to me that in order for a prevent (Captain) to stop another card (The Strong Angel) then it can't have begun or activated yet.  I understand that the trigger for the abilities to activate (the character entering battle) is met and would carry out but it doesn't actually happen until you get to that abilities turn in the order of abilities. 

This seems like another perfect time to propose a change to the way multiple-card banding works. For years it's been "enter at the same time, activate one at a time." Make it "enter one at a time" and you've got a winner.