Author Topic: Protection (Read 4929 times)

Praeceps · « **on:** July 10, 2015, 10:23:09 PM »

If something is protected from all effect, is it protected from discard by game rule?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #1 on:** July 10, 2015, 11:44:52 PM »

Seeing as how protection from Discard protects from discard by the numbers, it must be.

Josh · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2015, 10:08:31 AM »

I think discard by game rule still happens. If your hand was protected from all effects, could you draw past the 16 card limit? No.

Are you thinking of the Warriors Goshen and the heroes it protects if Goshen is discarded but not negated?

Praeceps · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2015, 05:30:43 PM »

Promo Goshen, but yes. And what Polarius says is true, which is why I bothered to ask.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2015, 06:16:14 PM »

We have no hierarchy of abilities that I know of, but if we did I believe "cards follow host" would be above protection.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #5 on:** July 11, 2015, 06:41:07 PM »

Don't quote me on this, but remember that what protect does is limits targeting, cards following their host probably doesn't use targeting, so protection does nothing for them. (Note: This implies that discard from being at 0 toughness is kinda like a target, which I admit is a little weird)

kram1138 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2015, 07:08:05 PM »

Well, the REG defines "Protect" as: "A protect ability allows a card to be unaffected by special abilities or game rules that would normally affect it."

And: "Protection from effects protects from game rules that result in those effects and cards with special abilities that result in
those effects."

So I'd say, yes, contents would survive.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2015, 07:39:58 PM »

If someone has a particular card to ask about, that may help answer questions.

However, if you have something held in another card, and the underlying card is discarded, all held or placed cards follow to discard. They must follow the host, regardless of whether they are actually protected from that effect.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2015, 11:58:35 AM »

That's not actually what the rules say.

kariusvega · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2015, 12:28:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 11, 2015, 07:39:58 PM

If someone has a particular card to ask about, that may help answer questions.

However, if you have something held in another card, and the underlying card is discarded, all held or placed cards follow to discard. They must follow the host, regardless of whether they are actually protected from that effect.

can placement only be negated in the same phase that the card is placed for a card with a place ability or does, for example, king of tyrus potentially discard a placed fruit of the spirit territory class enhancement since the place ability is then being negated in that battle phase?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2015, 12:32:10 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on July 12, 2015, 12:28:25 PM

can placement only be negated in the same phase that the card is placed for a card with a place ability or does, for example, king of tyrus potentially discard a placed fruit of the spirit territory class enhancement since the place ability is then being negated in that battle phase?

Place is an instant ability. It activates and completes in the same phase. If a card was placed during a prior phase, something like KoT would not be able to negate the placing of the card. However, other abilities that result from the card being placed that are either ongoing or trigger instantly in the current phase can still be negated.

Praeceps · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2015, 01:39:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 11, 2015, 07:39:58 PM

If someone has a particular card to ask about, that may help answer questions.

However, if you have something held in another card, and the underlying card is discarded, all held or placed cards follow to discard. They must follow the host, regardless of whether they are actually protected from that effect.

As mentioned above, Goshen is a the example we are talking about.

Goshen - Protect contents from all effects. If your Genesis or Exodus Hero has toughness */0 or less, you may place it here instead of discarding it.

As to your second point, they're right. The REG specifically says:

Quote

General Description
A protect ability allows a card to be unaffected by special abilities or game rules that would normally affect it.
How to Play
A card cannot be targeted by an ability from which it is protected. Game rules do not apply to a card that is
protected from the effect of the game rule.
All protect abilities are ongoing. A protect ability targets the cards that gain protected status.
Default Conditions
 Protect abilities last until the end of the phase in which they are used.
 Protect abilities target cards in play.
 Characters cannot be protected from themselves.
Special Conditions
 Protection from cards only protects from being targeted by the special abilities of those cards, not from game rules
influenced by those cards.
 Protection from effects protects from game rules that result in those effects and cards with special abilities that result in
those effects.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2015, 01:57:23 PM »

We have a long standing ruling that cards held or placed Goshen, KotW and similar type cards will share the fate of their host card, regardless of protection. There have been a small group of people who've argued against that ruling persistently but we don't believe it's in the best interest to change it. I personally don't care to have that conversation again.

That being said, we're about to make an update to the REG. In your opinion, what can we do to make this rule more clear?

kram1138 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2015, 02:37:49 PM »

Make it clear that placed cards follow their host, regardless of protection.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2015, 02:50:28 PM »

Quote from: kram1138 on July 12, 2015, 02:37:49 PM

Make it clear that placed cards follow their host, regardless of protection.

I feel like it is clear. Can you help us see specifically what isn't clear to you and possibly other players and hosts?

Here's what is currently written in the REG.

Quote from: REG>Pla Even>Movement of cards placed on other cards

Movement of Cards “Placed On” Other Cards
If a card is placed on another card and the underlying card is relocated, the placed card is generally relocated to the same location that the underlying card is relocated and remains there. Exceptions to this rule are:
 Lost Souls that are placed in sites are always returned to the general Land of Bondage and do not follow the underlying sites when the sites are relocated.
 Any card placed on a Lost Soul is discarded if the Lost Soul is relocated outside its original Land of Bondage.

kram1138 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2015, 03:00:40 PM »

Well, since protection stops things from being affected by game rules, I would intuitively guess it would overrule the game rule that says that placed cards follow. Not that I think it should, but from what you quoted from the reg for placed cards, as well as protect from the reg, it's not completely clear that is regardless of protection. I think it would just need a note of that in the reg.

Praeceps · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2015, 03:56:22 PM »

Firstly you could add as a clarification that contents follow the container, regardless of protection, because as it stands now, the long standing ruling whiling being the status quo, is contradicted by the REG without something mentioning this regardless of protection clause.

Also, under exceptions you might want to add a note about placed cards on characters who were just captured.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2015, 05:35:12 PM »

In our updated REG document I've suggested that we indicate that cards follow regardless of protection.

In the new REG we also have two additional exceptions noted.

1) cards placed on captured characters are discarded.
2) when a character is healed it does not retain cards that were placed on it.

Praeceps · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2015, 08:01:39 PM »

Thanks Gabe (and Redoubter working tirelessly in the REG background).

kariusvega · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2015, 09:10:06 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 12, 2015, 05:35:12 PM

2) when a character is healed it does not retain cards that were placed on it.

is that the current ruling? i've seen namaan's chariot stick to him countless times when healed, and as far as i know peace follows for david's harp. just wondering if this has been played wrong or if the ruling is just now changing in the new reg?

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2015, 09:58:39 PM »

It's the current ruling. I think many people have played it wrong because they are unfamiliar with how healing actually works due to it being a seldomly used ability. It's use has increased due to Peter and Luke.

After EC was released I had a FotS deck that used Peter. I assumed that my healed Hero retained his FotS. It was only later that I found out I was playing it wrong. There's nothing in the entry for heal that indicates a placed card returns once the Hero is discarded. Thus we've decided to add clarity in this REG update.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2015, 11:22:30 PM »

That's changed from how it used to be. "The previous state" at least used to include placed cards.

Gabe · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2015, 11:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 12, 2015, 11:22:30 PM

That's changed from how it used to be. "The previous state" at least used to include placed cards.

That's what I thought when I initially discovered it. I've dug back through the prior versions of the REG, the 10th Anniversary Rulebook as well as the current REG. I don't find anything under the heal entries that indicate it should have ever been played that way.

It was a change for me. I'm sure it's a change for others as well. But not because we've changed the rules. It's because we were playing it wrong due to a misunderstanding of how heal works.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2015, 11:59:44 PM »

Um, that's the opposite of the argument being made for why cards follow Goshen.

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2015, 12:38:58 AM »

Quote from: kariusvega on July 12, 2015, 09:10:06 PM

i've seen namaan's chariot stick to him countless times when healed, and as far as i know peace follows for david's harp. just wondering if this has been played wrong or if the ruling is just now changing in the new reg?

I don't believe either of those examples are illegal plays. Both Naaman and David's Harp are worded in such way that the heal replaces the discard effect. Cards held or placed are lost when the holder hits the discard pile because the card resets at that point. If the holder doesn't hit the discard pile I believe the cards would remain held/placed.

After reading the Heal entry again, because a character is healable if it's "about to be discarded", it seems to me that I should still be able to heal my FotS Hero with Peter, keeping the Hero from ever hitting the discard pile and resetting. However, if that same Hero hits the discard pile and I later activate a healing ability, then he doesn't keep the FotS.

I'm certainly open to correction on that, but it's the way I read it.

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Author Topic: Protection (Read 4929 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega