Author Topic: Protect. Interrupt. Start over. (Read 1643 times)

TheJaylor · « **on:** June 19, 2013, 09:13:28 PM »

My opponent attacks with Abigail banded to King David (sorta irrelevant but gives me inish). I then block with Nergalsharezer or any crimson Babylonian for that matter and play Swift Horses to interrupt the protect in Abby's ability and play Belshazar's Banquet to protect my souls and discard Nergal. In this case, would Abigail's protect reactivate, re-protecting the souls from the protect that has already taken place or would the protect from Belshazar's Banquet implement and not be able to be changed by Abigail? I'm thinking the latter but I'm not sure. I've had two elders tell me the opposite claims but I decided to post here for a more common consensus.

Abigail
Purple Hero 4/12
You may draw X (limit 3). Protect characters in your territory and Lost Souls in your opponent's territory from evil cards. May band to David.

Swift Horses
Crimson Enhancement 2/2
Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a Babylonian, you may play the next enhancement.

Belshazar's Banquet
Crimson Evil Enhancement 0/0
Discard all evil characters in battle. Protect all Lost Souls from rescue by a hero this turn.

wyatt_marcum · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2013, 09:32:49 PM »

I am pretty sure that you are still protecting the souls, even after you die.

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2013, 10:35:51 PM »

If a card is protected, it is also protected from protection. So if you play Banquet normally with Abigail active, Abigails protection protects from Banquet's protection. However, interrupt the battle interrupts all ongoing abilities, including protection. So if you played Banquet off of Swift Horses, Abigail's protection will have been interrupted (and not currently active), so Banquet can protect the souls. By the time Abigail kicks back in, the souls are already protected, so Abigail does nothing for them.

TL;DR Banquet off of Swift Horses protects Souls regardless of Abigail.

Josh · « **Reply #3 on:** June 20, 2013, 08:05:11 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 19, 2013, 10:35:51 PM

If a card is protected, it is also protected from protection. So if you play Banquet normally with Abigail active, Abigails protection protects from Banquet's protection. However, interrupt the battle interrupts all ongoing abilities, including protection. So if you played Banquet off of Swift Horses, Abigail's protection will have been interrupted (and not currently active), so Banquet can protect the souls. By the time Abigail kicks back in, the souls are already protected, so Abigail does nothing for them.

TL;DR Banquet off of Swift Horses protects Souls regardless of Abigail.

Let's think about the battle after Banquet goes off. The EC is dead, Banquet is protecting all lost souls from rescue, and then Abigail's ability kicks back in. Banquet doesn't protect lost souls from Abigail's ability, so she is once again active before battle resolution. Therefore, she is protecting lost souls from evil cards, which includes Banquet's protection, and a lost soul will be rescued.

asrgimli · « **Reply #4 on:** June 20, 2013, 08:47:38 AM »

Is protection retroactive? Are you able to protect from something that's already happened? Or is it because of the fact that Bel's Banquet is an ongoing ability instead of an instant ability that she is able to protect from the Bel's Banquet that's already gone off?

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** June 20, 2013, 10:10:22 AM »

Protection limits targets. So while jmhartz is correct that BB will not protect Lost Souls from Abigail's ability, Redoubter is also correct in that Abigail's ability will not stop BB since it was active before her protection kicked back in to limit the ability of BB to target the Lost Souls.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** June 20, 2013, 10:48:57 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 20, 2013, 10:10:22 AM

Protection limits targets. So while jmhartz is correct that BB will not protect Lost Souls from Abigail's ability, Redoubter is also correct in that Abigail's ability will not stop BB since it was active before her protection kicked back in to limit the ability of BB to target the Lost Souls.

That was Tim M's position as well. I wasn't sure (which is why Jayden asked), but that explanation makes sense.

Thus, I agree with Gabe.

Josh · « **Reply #7 on:** June 20, 2013, 11:34:24 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on June 20, 2013, 10:10:22 AM

Protection limits targets. So while jmhartz is correct that BB will not protect Lost Souls from Abigail's ability, Redoubter is also correct in that Abigail's ability will not stop BB since it was active before her protection kicked back in to limit the ability of BB to target the Lost Souls.

I am not following this. Protection limits targets, which I agree with. So let's follow the targets. Banquet protects all lost souls in play from rescue by heroes. Agreed. Then Abigail's protection kicks in, which protects lost souls in opponent's territory from evil cards. Banquet is an evil card, so Abigail's protection limits the cards that Banquet is targeting. Now Banquet is only protecting lost souls in the opponent's LoB from rescue by heroes. Banquet would need the phrase "Regardless of protection..." in its ability to get around Abigail's protection, regardless of when Abigail activated.

Here is another example of a similar situation. I rescue with an OT purple hero, my opponent blocks with Taskmaster ("Decrease all OT heroes 2/2 until end of turn..."). My OT purple hero is being decreased 2/2, and it is my initiative. I play River Flowing From the Temple and band Jair (2011) into battle from hand. Jair protects OT heroes from decrease. Is my OT purple hero still being decreased 2/2? Or does he revert back to full strength, now that Jair is removing him from the available targets of Taskmaster's ongoing ability?

browarod · « **Reply #8 on:** June 20, 2013, 12:52:17 PM »

Protection that has already targeted something cannot un-target that thing unless it is interrupted/negated. In the Banquet/Abigail scenario, once Abigail is no longer being interrupted, you then could not, say, play Burial on one of the Lost Souls because she's protecting them, but since she is not interrupting/negating Banquet's protect she does not overwrite the protection. She just adds hers over top of it.

In the Taskmaster/Jair scenario, Taskmaster's decrease is instant (not ongoing) so it doesn't really apply, but either way Jair is not interrupting him so the purple Hero would be protected from further decrease but would still be decreased by 2/2.

_JM_ · « **Reply #9 on:** June 20, 2013, 01:15:56 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on June 20, 2013, 11:34:24 AM

Quote from: Gabe on June 20, 2013, 10:10:22 AM
Protection limits targets. So while jmhartz is correct that BB will not protect Lost Souls from Abigail's ability, Redoubter is also correct in that Abigail's ability will not stop BB since it was active before her protection kicked back in to limit the ability of BB to target the Lost Souls.

I am not following this. Protection limits targets, which I agree with. So let's follow the targets. Banquet protects all lost souls in play from rescue by heroes. Agreed. Then Abigail's protection kicks in, which protects lost souls in opponent's territory from evil cards. Banquet is an evil card, so Abigail's protection limits the cards that Banquet is targeting. Now Banquet is only protecting lost souls in the opponent's LoB from rescue by heroes. Banquet would need the phrase "Regardless of protection..." in its ability to get around Abigail's protection, regardless of when Abigail activated.

Except that because of the interruption of Abigail's ability, Banquet's protection is in place before Abigail's - therefore, it is Abigail who needs the regardless of protection or interrupt clause in order to get her protection under Banquet's. You're treating this as a stack resolution, which doesn't exist in Redemption.

Josh · « **Reply #10 on:** June 20, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »

Protection is continuous and always updating. When a new soul comes in play, it immediately is targeted by Banquet and Abigail, because that is how protection works.

So Banquet is always updating its targets. Abigail makes the targets "go away", for lack of a better term. Banquet isn't being stopped or negated. It just finds, as it continuously updates, that as soon as Abigail's protection goes into effect, that the lost souls are no longer legal targets to protect.

I'm sure with everyone ruling the other way that that is how it will be ruled, but it just doesn't make sense to me, since protection is a dynamic, ongoing ability - it should always be "checking" for legal targets, and the second that Abigail's ability goes into effect, Banquet should no longer "find" the LS as legal targets.

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** June 20, 2013, 01:30:24 PM »

Since Abigail was interrupted when Banquet activated, it's treated as Banquet being active first, therefore its protection affects the Souls before hers does. Since Abigail doesn't negate Banquet, her protection just adds (as much as it can) on top of Banquet's and protects the Souls from further evil cards. Yes, protection constantly updates to include new targets, but the ones it already has aren't affected unless you interrupt or negate the protection.

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** June 20, 2013, 07:07:47 PM »

I certainly understand jmhartz's position about protection being ongoing and continuously updating, but protection can only protect from future events (including those reactivating after interruption). It does not change things that have already happened or are in effect, because of the way that targeting works.

To your banding-in-Jair example, when he enters battle the decrease is already in effect. He cannot protect from something that already happened, so the decrease of OT heroes is still there. If you had played an ITB, like Deborah's Directive, then by the time the decrease 'reactivates', the protection is in place and makes it so that the decrease cannot target.

Because that is the key, the definition of Protect is "A card cannot be targeted by an ability from which it is protected." In both situations described, the targeting has already taken place. You cannot untarget the cards with a protection played afterwards, and that is all that protection does for the purposes of these cards: stops targeting.

So, if you have protection down before a card could be targeted, then it cannot be targeted. If a target happens before protection activates, then the protection cannot stop the target, and by extension, the ability.

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Author Topic: Protect. Interrupt. Start over. (Read 1643 times)

TheJaylor

Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

wyatt_marcum

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Redoubter

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Josh

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

asrgimli

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Gabe

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Professoralstad

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Josh

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

browarod

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

_JM_

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Josh

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

browarod

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.

Redoubter

Re: Protect. Interrupt. Start over.