Author Topic: Protect from return/withdraw Q (Read 5552 times)

Master Q · « **on:** March 08, 2011, 10:29:10 PM »

I will again ask this, does Asahel's ability protect him from the shuffle ability of Grapes? If not, why not?

Asahel-
May band to an O.T. warrior class human Hero or may choose opponent's male human Evil Character to block. Protect Asahel from withdraw and return abilities.

Grapes-
Errata: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle [return] all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.

browarod · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2011, 10:58:24 PM »

Assuming the REG is correct about it being a return ability, then Asahel should be protected from it. However, I think that would be an errata disguised as a play as (unless I'm mistaken about the definition of "return"), so I'm not sure what to make of it.

Isildur · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2011, 12:50:27 AM »

why is grapes erretad?

The Guardian · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2011, 01:34:43 AM »

Side battle issues was the main reason I think. However, I'm not sure why the "return" got put in there when shuffle is already a defined ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2011, 04:36:24 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 09, 2011, 01:34:43 AM

Side battle issues was the main reason I think. However, I'm not sure why the "return" got put in there when shuffle is already a defined ability.

Instant Special Abilities > Return to Draw Pile > General Description
This special ability refers to cards that must be returned to a draw pile. This category includes cards shuffled into the draw pile, returned to the top of the draw pile, and placed beneath owner's draw pile. This category does not include shuffling a draw pile after a search special ability (see Search, Reveal, or Exchange).

It seems that was added to be a hyperlink to "Return to Draw Pile." The real problem here (which is the same problem in the Visions of Iddo thread) is that "return abilities" are not clearly defined, and in some cases have different rules. We need the new REG to distinguish:

Return
Return to Hand
Return to Draw Pile
Return to Sender

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2011, 04:42:33 PM »

Quote from: Master Q on March 08, 2011, 10:29:10 PM

I will again ask this, does Asahel's ability protect him from the shuffle ability of Grapes? If not, why not?

Asahel-
May band to an O.T. warrior class human Hero or may choose opponent's male human Evil Character to block. Protect Asahel from withdraw and return abilities.

Grapes-
Errata: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle [return] all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.

I don't see why he wouldn't be protected, based on current knowledge/rulings. Seems like the type of strategy that won't last long in the elder's circle though

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:03:38 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on March 09, 2011, 01:34:43 AM

Side battle issues was the main reason I think. However, I'm not sure why the "return" got put in there when shuffle is already a defined ability.

Actually, it was because we didn't want people to be starting new rescue attempts based on the fact that the beginning of a new battle is not contingent on the shuffling of all cards in battle. So if a Hero was protected from shuffle and a player played Grapes, the rescuer wouldn't get to win the RA and then start a new one in the same turn. Also, previously you could have used Grapes before a blocker to get two simultaneous RA's going.

I am not 100% on this one, but based on the REG, it does seem as if Asahel would be protected if Grapes is in fact a return ability. I would wait for other elders to comment before making a final decision, but if it came up at a tourney where I was the judge, I'd have to rule that it works.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:24:30 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 09, 2011, 05:03:38 PM

I am not 100% on this one, but based on the REG, it does seem as if Asahel would be protected if Grapes is in fact a return ability. I would wait for other elders to comment before making a final decision, but if it came up at a tourney where I was the judge, I'd have to rule that it works.

I also am not 100% sure, but it does seem like it would work. If this happens, then Asahel+Grapes would be almost a CBN battle winner. Of course it could be stopped by Unknown Nation, or Madness, or Gates of Hell, or Christian Martyr, or Unholy Writ, or Magic Charms, or ~~Herod's Treachery~~, or probably some other stuff. But still it's pretty strong

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2011, 05:25:34 PM »

Now if only we could recur dominants...

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2011, 07:45:35 PM »

I don't see this as being a big deal. Based on the errata of Grapes, yes Asahel would easily win the RA, but the player couldn't start another RA, since Asahel wasn't shuffled.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2011, 08:22:25 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 09, 2011, 05:03:38 PM

Actually, it was because we didn't want people to be starting new rescue attempts based on the fact that the beginning of a new battle is not contingent on the shuffling of all cards in battle. So if a Hero was protected from shuffle and a player played Grapes, the rescuer wouldn't get to win the RA and then start a new one in the same turn. Also, previously you could have used Grapes before a blocker to get two simultaneous RA's going.

What difference would that make, since they can only have one successful RA per turn?

Ongoing Special Abilities > Miscellaneous > Special Conditions
• Multiple The Long Day (Wa) cards may be used in the same battle. “Second” means the same as additional, similar as is the case for banding cards. If a rescue attempt is successful on a turn, holder may not make any more rescues on that turn.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2011, 11:22:35 PM »

So basically, it becomes another AotL in one situation.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2011, 03:46:48 AM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 09, 2011, 11:22:35 PM

So basically, it becomes another AotL in one situation.

Yeah, pretty much!

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2011, 05:18:34 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 09, 2011, 08:22:25 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 09, 2011, 05:03:38 PM
Actually, it was because we didn't want people to be starting new rescue attempts based on the fact that the beginning of a new battle is not contingent on the shuffling of all cards in battle. So if a Hero was protected from shuffle and a player played Grapes, the rescuer wouldn't get to win the RA and then start a new one in the same turn. Also, previously you could have used Grapes before a blocker to get two simultaneous RA's going.

What difference would that make, since they can only have one successful RA per turn?

Ongoing Special Abilities > Miscellaneous > Special Conditions
• Multiple The Long Day (Wa) cards may be used in the same battle. “Second” means the same as additional, similar as is the case for banding cards. If a rescue attempt is successful on a turn, holder may not make any more rescues on that turn.

I think the situation they were trying to avoid was attacking with a hero, then immediately playing Grapes. Since no evil card was discarded, the current hero isn't shuffled, and the attacking person would then be able to start a second battle when the first one wasn't completed yet. And having two rescue attempts occurring simultaneously is, in Redemption terms, awkward.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2011, 07:04:17 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 10, 2011, 05:18:34 PM

And having two rescue attempts occurring simultaneously is, in Redemption terms, awkward.

I think the term you're looking for is "a total Thadd"

Josh · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:30:47 AM »

So then if Grapes doesn't shuffle Asahel, would he also be protected from ANB?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:39:06 AM »

Is shuffle considered a return ability?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2011, 12:16:16 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 17, 2011, 10:30:47 AM

So then if Grapes doesn't shuffle Asahel, would he also be protected from ANB?

ANB has the same wording in its errata as Grapes. So it seems that if you play Coat + Asahel, along with the Thorns LS, you could win a LS. I think it's time that we take a hard look at this, because I think shuffle should be distinct from return.

STAMP · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:15:02 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 17, 2011, 12:16:16 PM

ANB has the same wording in its errata as Grapes. So it seems that if you play Coat + Asahel, along with the Thorns LS, you could win a LS. I think it's time that we take a hard look at this, because I think shuffle should be distinct from return.

It's sure getting hard to keep my ANB deck up to date, what with the "ANB Errata of the Week". BTW, is their an app for that? It would keep me informed like my weather tracker app and fantasy sports tracker app.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:50:13 PM »

The latest Errata: Remove player from game.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:56:35 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 17, 2011, 01:15:02 PM

BTW, is their an app for that? It would keep me informed like my weather tracker app and fantasy sports tracker app.

You're a programmer aren't you? It would be really cool if you'd make us one!

STAMP · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2011, 02:18:16 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 17, 2011, 01:50:13 PM

The latest Errata: Remove player from game.

THAT one worked.

Quote from: Gabe on March 17, 2011, 01:56:35 PM

Quote from: STAMP on March 17, 2011, 01:15:02 PM
BTW, is their an app for that? It would keep me informed like my weather tracker app and fantasy sports tracker app.

You're a programmer aren't you? It would be really cool if you'd make us one!

Sadly, my programming days are behind. But maybe...just maybe...hmmm...if I could get TJ to help me...yeah, I think that..just..might..work.

Bryon · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2011, 10:42:16 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 17, 2011, 12:16:16 PM

I think it's time that we take a hard look at this, because I think shuffle should be distinct from return.

Agreed. I thought shuffle was distinct from return. That's what I think it should be, anyway. Let's take this to the playtester side.

Consider the Asahel/Grapes and Asahel/ANB combos "on hold."

Treat "return to hand" and "return to territory" and "return to top of deck" (and "return to sender" if you live in ~~Oregon~~ Florida) as the only true "return" abilities at this point.

STAMP · « **Reply #23 on:** March 23, 2011, 10:36:13 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 22, 2011, 10:42:16 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 17, 2011, 12:16:16 PM
I think it's time that we take a hard look at this, because I think shuffle should be distinct from return.
Agreed. I thought shuffle was distinct from return. That's what I think it should be, anyway. Let's take this to the playtester side.

Consider the Asahel/Grapes and Asahel/ANB combos "on hold."

FWIW, I never thought Asahel was protected from shuffle. Return and shuffle are indeed distinct.

Quote from: Bryon on March 22, 2011, 10:42:16 PM

Treat "return to hand" and "return to territory" and "return to top of deck" (and "return to sender" if you live in Oregon) as the only true "return" abilities at this point.

ZING!! (ouch!)

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 17, 2011, 01:50:13 PM

The latest ANB Errata: Remove player from game.

STILL working!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** March 23, 2011, 10:56:12 AM »

Quote from: STAMP on March 23, 2011, 10:36:13 AM

Quote from: Bryon on March 22, 2011, 10:42:16 PM
Treat "return to hand" and "return to territory" and "return to top of deck" (and "return to sender" if you live in Oregon) as the only true "return" abilities at this point.
ZING!! (ouch!)

Interestingly, I was the one who put "Return to Sender" in the fourth post of this thread, and I am from Florida.

Quote from: STAMP on March 23, 2011, 10:36:13 AM

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 17, 2011, 01:50:13 PM
The latest ANB Errata: Remove player from game.
STILL working!

I guess it is time for you to have some company.

News:

Author Topic: Protect from return/withdraw Q (Read 5552 times)

browarod