Author Topic: Prot o Jeru and DOU  (Read 4513 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2012, 08:47:40 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 08:53:21 PM »
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Quote
Quote
Quote from: theselfevident on Today at 01:43:56 AM

    A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

    What is an evil character's goal in battle?


Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

I know what he's getting at. And that doesn't work, stopping the hero from rescuing the LS doesn't count as a defeat. Otherwise Potipher's Wife would capture off Failed Objective.
Just one more thing...

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 08:55:11 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.

The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2012, 08:58:28 PM »
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The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

That's a point that's been argued before and dismissed. When the evil character is discarded, it's considered "defeated," in T1 especially where the evil character isn't actually causing the RA to fail (and in fact, a HT can make the RA a success).

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2012, 08:59:00 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.

The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.
Just one more thing...

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2012, 09:03:17 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.

The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.

Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling

as it stands it says:

Evil Character is Defeated

An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2012, 09:05:13 PM »
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Of course, getting the REG edited is roughly the equivalent of getting Nick Cage to star in a good movie these days.

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2012, 09:10:55 PM »
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Of course, getting the REG edited is roughly the equivalent of getting Nick Cage to star in a good movie these days.

And that is exactly my point =D

Nick Cage... *shakes head in shame*... *somewhere an angel lost its wings 'cuz Chuck Norris just round house kicked them off in a fit of humorous rage 'cuz that was so funny*

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2012, 09:12:39 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.

The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.

Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling

as it stands it says:

Evil Character is Defeated

An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.

You get mugged and someone steals your cell phone. You chase after the mugger. He slips, falls in front of an on duty Police officer and your cell phone goes sliding down a storm drain. Did you (The Hero) win this battle? Was the Mugger (The EC) defeated?
Just one more thing...

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2012, 09:15:41 PM »
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except abilities must complete therefore survivor is captured and no longer discarded when poj checks cause if it worked your way i could block with king omri use gates with the searched for samaria play shimeis malicious curse and say i had still searched for a site so the decrease still happens. same thing

Assyrian Survivor's ability is ongoing, not instant, so no, it's not the same thing. I can see it from both sides, but there's nothing to suggest that AS' ability is an instead. The discard would happen, with would activate Protection of Jerusalem, and then he's captured. Unlike an instead like Herod's Temple, the discard does happen, and is then followed up by the self-capture.

A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle.

What is an evil character's goal in battle?

Presumably to prevent the rescue of Lost Souls, though in this meta, it's usually to d3 and generate a soul off of The Amalekite's Slave. ;)

What are you getting at, though?

Evil Characters are cards with a dragon in the icon box. Evil Characters block rescue attempts and battle challenges.

The entire point of an evil character is to block. If you're evil character successfully blocks your opponent's hero from rescuing a soul, would it not have achieved its goal and therefore not be defeated?

No, this isn't a case of the evil character winning, but rather both sides losing.

Then defeated should be redefined for clarification of this ruling

as it stands it says:

Evil Character is Defeated

An evil character is defeated if at the end of the battle resolution the Hero wins the battle.

You get mugged and someone steals your cell phone. You chase after the mugger. He slips, falls in front of an on duty Police officer and your cell phone goes sliding down a storm drain. Did you (The Hero) win this battle? Was the Mugger (The EC) defeated?

I'm not arguing the ruling, I'm just saying the definition should be updated to include this example. And its pretty obvious the mugger won, he wanted to get caught, 'cuz there's tracking devices in cell phones. He should have stolen the wallet...

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2012, 09:17:15 PM »
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He did, actually, when you weren't looking. The cop wasn't even a real cop, he was just a guy in a uniform. At any rate, thanks for the credit cards.

-runs away cackling-

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2012, 09:18:58 PM »
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He did, actually, when you weren't looking. The cop wasn't even a real cop, he was just a guy in a uniform. At any rate, thanks for the credit cards.

-runs away cackling-

Jokes on you =) I'm maxed out LOL

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2012, 11:40:22 PM »
+2
Hey,

In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded.  Goes to the discard pile.  And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile.  Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this.  A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.

The definition of defeat in the REG does not need changing.  In the example when Death of Unrighteous removes the lost souls from play it converts the Rescue attempt to a battle challenge.  Assyrian Survivor then loses the battle challenge when he is discarded.  Losing a battle challenge qualifies as being defeated.  (So Assyrian Survivor is actually simultaneously winning a rescue attempt and losing a battle challenge.)Additionally "discarded" is specifically mentioned in case one Evil Character is discarded but other Evil Characters remain in battle and end up winning it.  Even though the evil side won the battle, the Evil Character that was discarded was still defeated.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline theselfevident

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2012, 12:12:49 AM »
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Hey,

In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded.  Goes to the discard pile.  And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile.  Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this.  A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.

The definition of defeat in the REG does not need changing.  In the example when Death of Unrighteous removes the lost souls from play it converts the Rescue attempt to a battle challenge.  Assyrian Survivor then loses the battle challenge when he is discarded.  Losing a battle challenge qualifies as being defeated.  (So Assyrian Survivor is actually simultaneously winning a rescue attempt and losing a battle challenge.)Additionally "discarded" is specifically mentioned in case one Evil Character is discarded but other Evil Characters remain in battle and end up winning it.  Even though the evil side won the battle, the Evil Character that was discarded was still defeated.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Now that makes sense

TheHobbit13

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2012, 12:26:35 AM »
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Hey,

In the example Assyrian Survivor is discarded.  Goes to the discard pile.  And is then captured by his own ability, from the discard pile.  Which is normally out of range for a capture ability but we made an exception a long time ago for cards like this.  A character does not have to remain in the discard pile to be discarded, he just has to make it all the way there before being relocated.


I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the other two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I needed you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck  ;)
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 12:33:35 AM by TheHobbit13 »

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2012, 12:33:35 AM »
+1
Hey,

I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I need you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck  ;)

Which despite having an Assyrian defense had only 1 Assyrian Survivor and 0 Death of Unrighteous.   * facepalm *

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline Korunks

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2012, 08:40:28 AM »
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Well which elders are right?  The one's that say POJ triggers or the one's that don't?  I need to know how to rule this.
In AMERICA!!

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Prot o Jeru and DOU
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2012, 01:38:30 PM »
+1
Hey,

I guess you must have missed the ruling saturday because the two elders said poj doesn't trigger. Where were you when I need you? Oh yeah you were trying to make sense of Craigs deck  ;)

Which despite having an Assyrian defense had only 1 Assyrian Survivor and 0 Death of Unrighteous.   * facepalm *

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
I had Thorns and Pigs with a Pharisee defense. At least yours was still playable.

 


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