Author Topic: Proposed rule change: draw limit (Read 4792 times)

sepjazzwarrior · « **on:** January 09, 2018, 06:58:31 AM »

So in trying to think about new cards that would help stop the terror that is Kony I realize that with a deck that can deck out in 2 to 3 turns there really is no card that can help you since they will undoubtedly be drawn out before you have a high percentage chance of drawing it. What is needed is a rule change that will not only stop Kony but help curb other too fast decks.

I propose that we impose a speed limit of drawing 5 cards per phase on your turn. Once you have drawn your 5th card, all your draw abilities fizzle on that phase. This adds a whole new layer of strategy to the game making it so that you have to spread your drawing Out Among several phases, but it will still let you draw plenty. It's also stops decks like Kony that do most of their drawing during the prep phase.

Cards like mayhem and hur that make you draw over 5 cards would still work but after that you would be done drawing for the phase. If you say draw three cards in a phase and then activated Mayhem, Mayhem would still work but since you have now drawn five cards would be done drawing for that phase and all other draw abilities after that would fizzle. You can still force your opponent to draw over five cards in a phase but you cannot draw more than 5 per phase on your turn.

I'm sure the new reg and upcoming set will come up with plenty of counters and other ways to balance the game, just thought I would throw out my little idea I had in the shower this morning.Thoughts and feedback?

Josh · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:14:17 AM »

I don't think this will accomplish your goal of nerfing Children of Light. 5 cards per phase is a lot. And Children of Light has one of the most flexible draw abilities, in that it could be used to draw 5 in Prep, Battle, and Discard phases quite easily.

I've not played against Children of Light yet, but I watched a few of the videos from Nats and I've read many comments about it as well. I don't think this rule will solve the problem. There's a few things working against it.

1. Children's flexibility with drawing (mentioned above)
2. CBN protection from everything via Joy and/or Ram's Horn

CBN protection always leads to the most broken and unblockable rescues - see AUTO/Gideon and Thaddeus. There are so few "regardless of protection" cards which, outside of chump blocks or massive CBN banding chains, are the only way to block CBN protected heroes.

Maybe I just need to play against the deck and get stomped personally, but I think the only way to nerf the deck is to errata Children. There's precedent for this - see ANB and Holy Grail.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:31:47 AM »

if 5 is too high, then how about 4? Most all of CoL drawing happens in prep currently, so this would at lease make them split it up between prep and discard. it cant draw in battle because of toss (same reason regardless of protection kill cards don't stop it in battle). you can make all the regardless of protection TC kill cards you want, but if CoL decks out and wins before you can play it, it means nothing. Also he will just get healed with peter/love

All in all this game is getting faster and faster and something needs to be done to slow it down as a whole. In the past 10 years of playing ive seen decks go from somewhat balanced to being an offense with a few chump blocks strapped on. you can errata CoL, but there are plenty of other things out there that can move almost as fast, and I'm sure the next set will have to come out with just as much speed to compete. just like hand limit was implemented to stop combo drawing, we need to slow down the game just enough to make an actual defense viable again. instead of limiting the cards we make, why don't we make the player strategically decide when and how much they want to draw?

Red Wing · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:43:07 AM »

The way to nerf Coney and the rest of the top offenses in the game is to punish them for using so many brigades.

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on January 09, 2018, 09:31:47 AM

All in all this game is getting faster and faster and something needs to be done to slow it down as a whole. In the past 10 years of playing ive seen decks go from somewhat balanced to being an offense with a few chump blocks strapped on. you can errata CoL, but there are plenty of other things out there that can move almost as fast, and I'm sure the next set will have to come out with just as much speed to compete. just like hand limit was implemented to stop combo drawing, we need to slow down the game just enough to make an actual defense viable again. instead of limiting the cards we make, why don't we make the player strategically decide when and how much they want to draw?

We need set rotation, not new rules.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:50:55 AM »

I think it might be better if you put a limit on cards placed on a single hero. You can't place more than three or four cards that way it would stop the drawing all together from Children of light.

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2018, 09:54:36 AM »

Actually, since TEC, balanced decks have made a huge comeback. True speed decks like CoL with literal chump/splash defenses haven't been played with much success for years. Even Throne decks are usually balanced.

The only reason that CoL can work as a true speed deck is that once it's set up, there's pretty much no way to successfully block CoL because of all the armor abilities - and it sets itself up quickly enough that it can outrace an opponent. For pretty much every other offense out there, a defense can find a way to squeeze out blocks here and there. Not so for a fully-loaded CoL.

Red Wing · « **Reply #6 on:** January 09, 2018, 10:01:48 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 09, 2018, 09:54:36 AM

Actually, since TEC, balanced decks have made a huge comeback. True speed decks like CoL with literal chump/splash defenses haven't been played with much success for years. Even Throne decks are usually balanced.

Balanced decks having been fine since before Early Church, just look at Martin Miller's 2012 deck. Decks may have slightly more defense nowadays, but that's because offenses are more efficient and don't need as many card slots to work.

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** January 09, 2018, 10:24:12 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on January 09, 2018, 09:50:55 AM

I think it might be better if you put a limit on cards placed on a single hero. You can't place more than three or four cards that way it would stop the drawing all together from Children of light.

If we went with a limit we probably wouldn't go below 6 to allow the full Armor of God.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #8 on:** January 09, 2018, 10:33:06 AM »

I guess my definition of balanced is a bit different than others on here. when I say balanced, I mean an offense and defense with the same number of cards, or only 1-2 more/less cards than the other. I liked it when games took over an hour and it was a war to see if you could get 5 LS. I know its probably not good for the game to get quite that bad again, but I still see it as too fast overall for anything fun to happen with a defense in T1

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2018, 10:45:10 AM »

Quote

I liked it when games took over an hour

But the time limit is 45 minutes...

Jeremystair · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2018, 11:15:26 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 09, 2018, 10:24:12 AM

Quote from: Jeremystair on January 09, 2018, 09:50:55 AM
I think it might be better if you put a limit on cards placed on a single hero. You can't place more than three or four cards that way it would stop the drawing all together from Children of light.

If we went with a limit we probably wouldn't go below 6 to allow the full Armor of God.

Even 6 would slow her down.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #11 on:** January 09, 2018, 11:17:46 AM »

not every game happens in a tournament

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2018, 12:52:56 PM »

Arbitrary limits like this are bandaid fixes and in this case I don't think it would even accomplish the intended goal. As others have mentioned I believe the best option to nerf CoL and improve the game as a whole is make very powerful cards that punish having multiple brigades out and specifically multiple brigades in battle at once.

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2018, 02:23:52 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on January 09, 2018, 10:45:10 AM

Quote
I liked it when games took over an hour

But the time limit is 45 minutes...

Most games outside of tournaments only last over an hour because of constant banter, trolling, arguing about the meta, etc...

jesse · « **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2018, 02:57:36 PM »

Zac is just like me- he prefers the siege war over the drive-by

In other rule change requests, let's extend T2-Multi to 3 hours (at least)

Ironisaac · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:01:10 PM »

Quote from: jesse on January 09, 2018, 02:57:36 PM

In other rule change requests, let's extend T2-Multi to 3 hours (at least)

If your deck contains ANB, the time is extended to 5 hours.

jesse · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:07:48 PM »

Oh yeah now we're talking!

The Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:24:08 PM »

Quote from: jesse on January 09, 2018, 02:57:36 PM

Zac is just like me- he prefers the siege war over the drive-by

In other rule change requests, let's extend T2-Multi to 3 hours (at least)

Or create a card "First One's Free" -- Negate artifacts. Each player may search their deck for Son of God.

Reth · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:06:45 PM »

For me such kind of rule change(s) would harm the pleasure of putting combos and decks like CoL together - it would decrease the fun of thinking about decks, deck building and playing. Hence I really would'nt like to see things like this - even more since the root cause is one card with its ability (in conjunction with lots of cards - mostly out of sets relaesed not long before).
The ability of this card was surely not chosen unintentionally and without thinking about its effects and impact!

Ironisaac · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:12:26 PM »

Quote from: Reth on January 09, 2018, 04:06:45 PM

For me such kind of rule change(s) would harm the pleasure of putting combos and decks like CoL together - it would decrease the fun of thinking about decks, deck building and playing. Hence I really would'nt like to see things like this - even more since the root cause is one card with its ability (in conjunction with lots of cards - mostly out of sets relaesed not long before).
The ability of this card was surely not chosen unintentionally and without thinking about its effects and impact!

I agree to some extent, but when you have something like CoL running rampant, it becomes bad for the game. Also, just from talking to playtesters and other people, I don't think they saw a deck like this taking over the game. CoL was just supposed to be a small boost for AoG decks to actually make them playable again after they got decimated by coliseum and moses 2 years ago.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:39:58 PM »

Why not make cards placed on Characters like Artifact Piles. They can have as many cards on them as they want but must choose which one is on top and active each turn. May be a bad idea, haven't really thought it all the way through. In the interest of full disclosure though, I am really not a fan of new rules to address card combo issues. We can do as we have always done and balance it in the upcoming set. We don't need to make something more powerful, but simply need to create two to three cards that deal with the issue specifically as to not give in to power creep.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:02:26 PM »

4 per phase lol? 4 per turn please.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 10, 2018, 09:49:14 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on January 09, 2018, 05:02:26 PM

4 per phase lol? 4 per turn please.

I know we are trying to find "simple and easy" ways to nerf CoL, but we need to keep in mind that anything we do WILL effect all categories. I think Type 1 does potentially need some kind of limit per turn, but that will never work with Type 2. A per turn limit would make Type 2 even slower, and basically kill Type 2 Multi. I would be totally fine with different rule sets for different categories, as we already have that in deck-building rules, but if that isn't something we are looking for then tread carefully!

The Guardian · « **Reply #23 on:** January 10, 2018, 12:27:36 PM »

I think one thing to keep in mind is that to some degree we do want a Hero who has the entire Armor of God (and perhaps a few Fruits to boot) to be pretty untouchable. What we perhaps didn't want was for that Hero to be fully equipped by turn two...

The question becomes, can an AoG decks be viable without having the D1 that CoL gives? They were certainly viable, highly used (and winning) prior to CoW being released so I think so. With the discovery of the Ram's Horn combo, the addition of CoL and the counters that were made to Moses in RoJ, I feel they are even more viable now.

Just a few points to consider in the discussion.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 10, 2018, 06:58:52 PM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on January 10, 2018, 09:49:14 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit on January 09, 2018, 05:02:26 PM
4 per phase lol? 4 per turn please.

I know we are trying to find "simple and easy" ways to nerf CoL, but we need to keep in mind that anything we do WILL effect all categories. I think Type 1 does potentially need some kind of limit per turn, but that will never work with Type 2. A per turn limit would make Type 2 even slower, and basically kill Type 2 Multi. I would be totally fine with different rule sets for different categories, as we already have that in deck-building rules, but if that isn't something we are looking for then tread carefully!

if you can draw 7 cards per turn and 4 more on defense we'll be fine in type 2. It just prevents that offensive blitzkrieg of drawing that type 2 has become. Plus it would even out the playing field for "slower" offenses like genesis which basically don't have a shot to win tournaments.

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Author Topic: Proposed rule change: draw limit (Read 4792 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13