Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I believe that reducing the amount of extra cards that players can reasonably draw over the course of a game will cause balanced decks to win

Which is why I for one, as well as several other members of the forums advocate a rule to hurt decking out since that would harm the 50 card speed decks that draw like crazy.

I personally would advocate something like this:  "The first time a player has no cards in his deck to draw, remove one lost soul form his land of Redemption and place it in owner's territory"

I disagree w/ u SirNobody, because with the small defenses, I feel that I should be running a mini-defense or else I'm not a really good player. And I bet there are others out there that feel like that too, which will do the very thing that u wish to stop. I'd rather see at least some more defense for T1, especially it costs too much for most players to go to T2 instead.

In my experience it is more likely that a player decks out against a turtle deck than when playing a speed deck.

I find that true too, but is implementing a rule that promotes larger decks that often favor defense a bad thing?  I think not. 

I play lots of defense.  I do NOT question whether I am a good player or not.  You don't HAVE to follow the crowd to have talent, or self-esteem.

As for the main reason for speed decks to dominate T1, it really isn't because of the cards OR the players.  It is really all because of one thing, and that is the time limit on games.  Defense CAN shut down even the best offenses with the cards that are already available.  However, in live tournaments, the 1 hour (or less) time limits on games makes it so that those decks can't win before timing out.

This has been basically proven in ROOT.  But ROOT has longer time limits, and that deck wouldn't be able to do as well if it did.  So if you like to play defense, then join ROOT.  And unless time limits change at live tournaments, then either play defense anyway and even though you'll lose, at least you'll have fun.  Or cave in and play speed like most everyone else.

Hey,

I feel that I should be running a mini-defense or else I'm not a really good player.

I've never used a speed deck or a mini-defense.  Are you saying I'm not a good player?

with any more than ten cards on defense, the deck starts to lose efficiency.

I couldn't disagree more.  Speed decks are far less efficient than a well built balanced deck.  When the speed deck wins, it is because it uses draw abilities to get a card advantage and overwhelms the opponent with the quantity of cards, not the efficiency of them.

the main problem ... is the incredible amount of CBN cards in the game. No matter how good a 20 card defense I put together is, it won't matter when Sam's Edict, Authority of Christ (p), Bravery of David, Genesis enhancements (with Joseph), and several others are all CBN and thus, I have no consistent way to stop them.  CBN banding is almost as bad, with MMoJ and Samuel.

I have not played competitively since Nationals.  That being said, there are ways to get around CBN battle winners.  CBN protect (Judas Iscariot), Instead the battle winner (Herod's Temple), or just don't give them the chance to play it (Uzzah).  There are ways to deal with CBN banding.  Don't let them into battle (Household Idols), send them out of battle (Goliath), or use battle winners that remove them all from battle (Nebuchadnezzar's Pride).  As the cards that speed decks use to win their "almost impossible to stop" rescues change, you have to come up with new and different ways to stop them, but the ways to stop them do exist.

Multiple people (including myself) have tried to come up with balanced or defense heavy decks that are effective, and the best I've heard anyone do with a balanced or defense heavy deck is about 50%.

I haven't played competitively yet this year, but historically I probably win at least 75% of the games I play, and I've always played a balanced deck.
I don't know how many times Andrew Wester used his defensive heavy deck at nationals, but out of 10 rounds he only lost 1 game.

It may be easier to win with a speed deck, but it's definitely not the only way to win.

As for the main reason for speed decks to dominate T1, it really isn't because of the cards OR the players.  It is really all because of one thing, and that is the time limit on games.

The time limit is a hindrance to defensive heavy decks.  It is not a significant hindrance to balanced decks.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offensive heavy is more efficient than balanced. card flow IS efficiency.

If we're talking about letting T1 decks have more generics in them, why not just expand upon the "Legion identifier" by printing new characters (or reprints) with something similar?

I like this idea and will keep it in mind for future cards

Which is why I hold to the below statement as the best solution to the problems with the meta.

Which is why I for one, as well as several other members of the forums advocate a rule to hurt decking out since that would harm the 50 card speed decks that draw like crazy.

I personally would advocate something like this:  "The first time a player has no cards in his deck to draw, remove one lost soul form his land of Redemption and place it in owner's territory"

Hey,

Speed is running rampant yeah? Let's print some more counters for it right? Wrong. The only true way to counter speed is with more speed. You can have all your nice counters in your deck, but unless you have the same amount of drawing cards in your deck, you won't get them until it's too late.

I think the counters that we print for speed are reasonably effective.  The problem is that we print cards that stop the speed that was popular in the previous year and at the same time print a new version of speed to be used the next year.  The counters to speed are always a year behind.  If we didn't print any search or draw abilities in the next three years I believe speed would lose whatever edge it has.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The problem is that we print cards that stop the speed that was popular in the previous year and at the same time print a new version of speed to be used the next year.

Why is speed still getting new cards? If we could shut down speed entirely, the game would become much more varied and interesting. Games would become a battle of strategies, rather than a race to five.

...when speed's drawing was almost entirely off of set-asides.
...until the recent flood of character abilities that draw.

Again, not pointing fingers at anybody, but what is the reason for the constant addition of new ways to draw?

That's 4/6 months where speed ended up winning a particular month of ROOT, and the only two that it didn't, you were the person who won.

I actually was playing Geneptians (a speed variant deck) the 4 months that speed won ROOT (practicing for live tourneys with time the shorter time limits).  The only 2 months that I played defense-heavy, I came in 1st place.  That's pretty good evidence that defense CAN win if given enough time to do so.

The problem with anti-speed cards is that you have to draw them to use them, which necessitates using speed. A game rule is the only thing that will fix it

I agree with this.  The best 3 that I've heard are 1) a longer time limit, 2) a "Gifts of the Magi" gamerule, and 3) a deckout penalty rule (specifics to be determined).