Author Topic: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire  (Read 2015 times)

Offline asrgimli

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King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« on: May 15, 2014, 02:30:10 PM »
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If King Abijam enters play as an evil character and gets discarded, is he an evil character in the discard pile, or is he considered either good or evil?  For example, say I put him out and declare him evil, he gets discarded, and I have chariots of Fire up.  After my next rescue attempt, would I be able to shuffle King Abijam back into my draw pile, or is he only considered evil in the discard pile since he entered play as an evil character?

King Abijam (identifier): When Abijam enters play, choose to be good or evil.

Chariots of Fire: Following your rescue attempt, return all heroes in your discard pile to your draw pile.  Shuffle draw pile.

Offline Minion of Jesus

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2014, 02:54:49 PM »
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Once a character leaves play, it reverts to its original state (or something like that). So he would be neutral when he enters your discard. So no, you could not bring him back with Chariots.

(Which brings up an interesting question; what happens if Abijam is set aside? What happens on his return?
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 02:58:05 PM »
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You are right that he resets in the discard pile, but he would be shuffled with Chariot of Fire because he is both a good and evil character when he isn't in play.

He does not reset in set aside, so unless he was set aside from hand, deck or discard pile he would remain as whatever he was when he entered play.
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browarod

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2014, 03:31:22 PM »
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ChristianSoldier is correct. If Abijam is set aside while not in play (for example, with Samaritan Water Jar) he would remain both a Hero and Evil Character in set aside since he only becomes one or the other when entering play.

Offline asrgimli

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2014, 03:39:11 PM »
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Alright, so confirmation that he does get shuffled.  Thanks.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 07:22:56 PM »
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First, the easiest way to explain this one (and all similar questions) is that cards are at face value in hand, deck, and discard.  Whatever that may be, and no matter what.

If Abijam is set aside while not in play (for example, with Samaritan Water Jar) he would remain both a Hero and Evil Character in set aside since he only becomes one or the other when entering play.

While it may seem that way, I would rule that when it is taken out of deck, it takes a 'form'.  Cards can only remain at face value in one of the three locations mentioned, and since set-aside cards are still under your control (even if they are not 'in play'), and cards can affect them there (including sending them to territory), it would be against hard-game-rule to have a single card 'active' and controlled which has not only two alignments, but also would be considered a hero and evil character at the same time.  The only time this should be possible is in hand, deck, and discard, regardless of the text on the card.

We should probably get some Elder input on this one.  I can see this going either way, but I think that the idea that you can have a card with multiple personalities out leads to a lot of problems and is very contradictory.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 07:26:29 PM by Redoubter »

Offline yirgogo

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2014, 09:56:05 PM »
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The way I have allways played it, along with cards like forest fire and Drawn sword, is that once they are put into play with a charactaristic, and are not recet in hand deck or discard, than they retain that, even in out of play.

A good example is the 3-liner lost soul, land of redemption is out of play, however, if it is felled away, it doesn't reset but if it is shuffled or discarded, and than is put back, it does.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2014, 09:57:43 PM »
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The question would not be whether a played King A would retain the chosen alignment if set aside, that is absolutely true.  The question is what happens if he never actually hits 'in play' to trigger that via his identifier.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 10:48:02 PM »
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And yes this matters because what if he got set aside with SWJ and then I wanted to target him with Glittering Sword. Is he a legal target?

Glittering sword - Discard one Old Testament Evil Character in play or in a set aside area.

Or what if I want to play Acts of Uzziah to get him back early?

Acts of Uzziah - Discard Household Idols. Return all Evil Characters in set aside areas to owner's territory at face value.
Just one more thing...

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 11:19:31 PM »
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Also, what if I set him aside with Ambush? Could I choose him to be an Evil Character after he is blocked?





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browarod

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 10:17:19 AM »
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I've never heard of people having to choose alignments for DAE's set aside from deck, I've never heard of people having to choose artifact or enhancement for Covenants/Curses when set aside from deck, I was going off this for my thought on Abijam. Does that mean people couldn't have been playing it wrong? No. But the current precedent is that cards with multiple facets are still face value (i.e.: all facets) unless they directly enter play.

I mean, King Abijam's identifier specifically says "When Put in Play" so I don't see how anything allows for that to trigger when set aside without entering play first, lol.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2014, 12:31:47 PM »
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I don't think there is an actual precedent beyond that cards are only at face-value in hand, deck, and discard and that they must have identity elsewhere (for interactions with other cards and the way thing could happen with set-asides in particular).

For your last point, I did acknowledge that it says that in my post, I'm saying I don't believe it can override the hard rules around card identity.  A character cannot be out and be good and evil at the same time, and he is out and controlled by a player even in set-aside, so I don't believe his identifier can limit him to just being put in play.  As I said though, that is something Elders need to address.

Offline Josh

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 12:54:59 PM »
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Gotta agree with Redoubter on this one.  What King Abijam's identifier ought to say is "When played..." instead of "When put in play...", because it is possible to play cards directly to set-aside (Gates of Hell, Fishing Boat).  Now, King Abijam doesn't have an identifier that does it, like GoH does.  But special abilities like SWJ do that with King Abijam; he is "played" to the set-aside area, and at that point, he should either be a hero or an EC. 
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Offline yirgogo

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 01:33:21 PM »
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Going off of jmhartz, I have a question about stronghold in the desert. Protect contents from opponents' cards. While occupied, each time an opponent plays an Evil Character of a brigade he does not already have in play, discard the top card of his deck.
What does it mean to play an evil character? Set them aside? Put in play? Block?
What conditions could satisfy needing to discard the top card of their deck?
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 03:38:33 PM »
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Going off of jmhartz, I have a question about stronghold in the desert. Protect contents from opponents' cards. While occupied, each time an opponent plays an Evil Character of a brigade he does not already have in play, discard the top card of his deck.
What does it mean to play an evil character? Set them aside? Put in play? Block?
What conditions could satisfy needing to discard the top card of their deck?

Anytime they put an EC of a brigade they don't already have in play into battle or territory is, I believe, how that works.
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: King Abijam & Chariots of Fire
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 06:00:55 PM »
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A card is considered “played” if it meets these criteria:
-You play an enhancement by attempting to activate its special ability (or numbers in battle)
-You play a character or multicolor site by putting it in your territory or your side of the battle.
-You play any other card type by putting it face up on the playing surface from hand, deck, or discard pile due to your special ability or game action, except when you discard a card from hand.

Abijam being set aside by SWJ DOES meet the third criteria (SWJ sets aside face-up, I believe, since you have to check them for Lost Souls) so I would agree with jmhartz that if he instead said "When Played" then he would choose even if played to set aside. However, Abijam says "When Put in Play" which is different than being "played."

Am I okay with Abijam having to choose when set aside? Yes. I just don't, personally, believe that this is the way it currently works.

 


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