Author Topic: Primary Objective and access (Read 8154 times)

Gabe · « **on:** May 16, 2009, 12:50:40 PM »

When a Hero uses Primary Objective, are they required to have access to the chosen Lost Soul?

~~For example, if Primary Objective is played on an OT Male, can Primary Objective rescue the Female or NT LS?~~

New example below.

Primary Objective
Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3/0 • Class: None • Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or holder rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.

TimMierz · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2009, 12:53:22 PM »

I'd say no, access is not required (it can even be in a site), because the Holder, not the Hero, is rescuing the soul. Just a guess though.

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2009, 12:59:05 PM »

So, disregard that example using the NT/Female LS, they're protected from rescue and not legal targets. However, the question still remains, if the LS is in a Site that you don't have access to, can PO still rescue it?

everytribe · « **Reply #3 on:** May 16, 2009, 02:17:19 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 16, 2009, 12:59:05 PM

So, disregard that example using the NT/Female LS, they're protected from rescue and not legal targets. However, the question still remains, if the LS is in a Site that you don't have access to, can PO still rescue it?

No

cforce44 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:05:01 PM »

If Primary Objective was intended to give you access to all sites, the special ability would say that this hero has access to all sites; but it doesn't. So I would say that you must have access to a site, if the lost soul you want to rescue is in a site.

lightningninja · « **Reply #5 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:07:07 PM »

I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem.

cforce44 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:11:24 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on May 16, 2009, 03:07:07 PM

I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem.

Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:14:15 PM »

so, what if you played Long Day? You would lose the battle, begin another, and get another LS. You could win in 2 turns if they was right.....

Quote from: cforce44 on May 16, 2009, 03:11:24 PM

Quote from: lightningninja on May 16, 2009, 03:07:07 PM
I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem.

Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.

He meant that both can rescue a LS without access.

sk · « **Reply #8 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:17:18 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on May 16, 2009, 03:07:07 PM

I'd say yes, you can still rescue the ls with primary objective even if you don't have access. It says choose a ls, not "your hero rescues a ls." I think it works similarly to Son of God and New Jerusalem.

Yeah, I don't think you need access, as I agree that the rescue seems unrelated to the battle.

Quote from: cforce44 on May 16, 2009, 03:11:24 PM

Son of God and New Jerusalem are multi colored dominants. Where as Primary Objective is a good enhancement, subject to different rules and a single brigade.

They're not multibrigade. Dominants do not have brigades (or else nobody would play GotL

). Primary Objective is giving the holder the ability to rescue, which circumvents the need for access, IMO.

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on May 16, 2009, 03:14:15 PM

so, what if you played Long Day? You would lose the battle, begin another, and get another LS. You could win in 2 turns if they was right.....

Shhhh....

lightningninja · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:17:47 PM »

Long day only works with a rescue attempt. If you play primary objective, it's a battle challenge Cameron.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2009, 03:30:18 PM »

When a Rescue Attempt becomes a Battle Challenge, it is a failed rescue. This combo has been around for a while.

lightningninja · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2009, 05:10:11 PM »

Wow... really? That's pretty awesome... I'm definitely going to base a deck on this.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2009, 05:39:01 PM »

Its not worth it believe me.... check out this thread....
NVM. I forgot... the purge... my ultimate one turn deck gasp.... needless to say it was nasty though recent rule changes have made it unlikely to play.

crustpope · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2009, 06:32:22 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on May 16, 2009, 05:39:01 PM

Its not worth it believe me.... check out this thread....
NVM. I forgot... the purge... my ultimate one turn deck gasp.... needless to say it was nasty though recent rule changes have made it unlikely to play.

The problem isnt playing the long day to get the card back, the problem is gettin 7 more cards in your hand to discard everytime to make the combo work. you have to have a lot of drawing cards in the combo and enough cards left in your deck ion order to get the combo to work

It works better in type 2 games

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #14 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:04:54 PM »

Can we please get away from the Long Day discussion? I would really like a ruling on this.

This was a question that came up during a "fun" game at the Iowa State Tournament between Gabe and me. After consulting with Tim Maly (who was there, and made this excellent point), we agreed that Primary Objective could NOT rescue the NT Soul or the Woman-only Soul because those cards are restricted in what kind of card can target them (if New Jerusalem cannot target either of them, neither can PO).

That being said, I firmly believe that PO can target a soul in a site that the character PO is played on has no access to. PO's wording is unlike any other enhancement's ability in that it specifically says that the holder rescues any selected lost soul. It further says that the battle continues as a battle challenge, indicating that the battle has nothing to do with rescuing the lost soul. Gabe disagrees and says the Hero must have access for PO to target the soul.

Am I right or is Gabe?

Kevin Shride

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #15 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:11:30 PM »

Primary Objective:

Quote

Brigade: Silver Ability: 3/0 Class: None Special Ability: If making a rescue attempt, discard hand (minimum 7 cards) and select a lost soul in opponent's Land of Bondage. Opponent must discard hand or HOLDER rescues that lost soul. Battle continues as a battle challenge.

You select a lost soul, and then you rescue it, not your hero. The hero has nothing to do with this ability aside from the fact that he played the enhancement, so I don't think it's necessary for the hero to have access at all.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:23:40 PM »

By that logic, you still could not rescue the female-only LS since you (the holder) are not a female hero or the Son of God; could not rescue the NT-only LS since you are the holder and not the hero; ditto for the */4-only LS.

FWIW, I think that access is irrelevant. This card clearly supercedes normal rescue rules, therefore LS access should be one of them.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:36:00 PM »

I'm torn. From my experience with someone trying to break TEAMS at last year's Nats by turning Doubt into a CTB card when it is not one (props), I would think that it is equally wrong for someone to turn PO into a site access card when it is not one.

However, based on the wording of the card, it does seem to be pretty specific that rescuing the soul has nothing to do with the hero. In fact the hero isn't even in a rescue attempt anymore, but just a battle challenge. Therefore, I think that I would tentatively rule that a site-protected LS COULD be rescued in this case.

Not being confident, I will of course defer to whatever the official decision is from Schaef/Bryon.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #18 on:** May 16, 2009, 10:49:02 PM »

I think that the cost is high enough to justify the reward.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #19 on:** May 17, 2009, 12:41:25 AM »

I agree with those who say Primary Objective can rescue the Lost Soul from a site when no access exists.

Kirk

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 17, 2009, 07:36:56 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 16, 2009, 10:23:40 PM

By that logic, you still could not rescue the female-only LS since you (the holder) are not a female hero or the Son of God; could not rescue the NT-only LS since you are the holder and not the hero; ditto for the */4-only LS.

And the first-rounder (on the first round). I never claimed you could rescue things like that.

The Schaef · « **Reply #21 on:** May 17, 2009, 09:04:29 AM »

... or the anti-banding LS if there are different-booked Heroes banded. Or the Speed Bump if you have >10 in hand. Or the anti-angel LS.

The question of Site access might not matter, it's starting to look like all your LS are protected anyway!

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** May 17, 2009, 09:26:28 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 17, 2009, 07:36:56 AM

And the first-rounder (on the first round). I never claimed you could rescue things like that.

I was suggesting that your evidence would not stand up in a court of Redemption law.

In your example, Arianna could not rescue the Female-only LS with Primary Objective.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #23 on:** May 17, 2009, 09:29:00 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on May 17, 2009, 09:26:28 AM

In your example, Arianna could not rescue the Female-only LS with Primary Objective.

That is correct. What are you trying to say?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** May 17, 2009, 09:29:37 AM »

She can.

News:

Author Topic: Primary Objective and access (Read 8154 times)

cforce44

cforce44

The Schaef