Author Topic: Practice for Newer Tournament Judges... (Read 5664 times)

EmJayBee83 · « **on:** February 04, 2009, 09:51:14 AM »

This arose last night in a game, and I promised I would ask--so here goes...

I activated I Am Holy, and proceeded to discard a good card from my hand to make my opponent discard an evil card. My opponent asked if he could play Destruction of Nehushtan. I ruled that he had to discard an evil card or show hand. Following that, since I Am Holy is not CBN, he could play DoN and get his evil card back. Unfortunately for him, the only evil card he had in hand was DoN.

Two quick questions:
1) Was this ruled correctly?
2) What if I Am Holy's SA started with Once per turn instead of Upon activation?

I Am Holy SA Upon activation, holder may discard a good card from hand to make an opponent discard an evil card from hand. If opponent has no evil cards in hand, opponent must reveal hand.

Destruction of Nehushtan SA Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated.

TheMarti · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2009, 09:53:46 AM »

1. I believe it was ruled correctly. The ability of "upon activation" needs to complete before the playing of a dominant. Kinda in the same realm of how Urim and Thummim is... it has to complete before the opponent can react.

2. I believe that it would still be ruled the same way. I could be wrong.

~Marti

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2009, 09:59:06 AM »

w/Marti.

Even if it was once per turn the player activating it would get the opportunitty to complete the ability when they turned the Covenant face up on the Artifact pile.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:05:28 AM »

with Marti and Gabe.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:21:01 AM »

this happened to me once. and the buckler was the card that was discarded... only TheRoc would do such a thing...

metalpsalm · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2009, 10:40:19 AM »

Yep, the hand was targeted and the SA had to be completed before he could throw a Dominant. Devastating. I love it!

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2012, 10:12:55 PM »

Can someone clarify why a Negate is overruled by a non-CBI card? I thought the game rule states that Negate stops an effect unless noted to be CBI/CBN.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2012, 10:15:06 PM »

The ability needed to complete before it was able to be negated. See the aforementioned U&T

megamanlan · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2012, 10:23:32 PM »

I don't get that. It's like saying that an EE must finish before u can play Live Coal.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2012, 10:50:00 PM »

That relates to special initiative, which is different. In this case, special initiative doesn't play into it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2012, 11:10:32 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on February 14, 2012, 10:12:55 PM

Can someone clarify why a Negate is overruled by a non-CBI card? I thought the game rule states that Negate stops an effect unless noted to be CBI/CBN.

Because I am Holy's ability has to complete. If DoN is the only evil card in their hand, it must be discarded, and then there's nothing to negate it with. If you had a different evil card to discard, you could then use DoN and get the evil card back.

EDIT: Instaposted...
DOUBLE EDIT: Wait, time stamp is all wrong. Maybe I just didn't read far enough? I guess I further explained things, so I'll leave it.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2012, 11:35:23 PM »

He is actually posting on this thread in reference to a UandT situation.

Redoubter · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:57:16 PM »

I have another question, because multiple people in this thread have mentioned negating the artifact with DoN and getting their evil card back.

I was under the impression that DoN does NOT interrupt, as it FIRST discards, THEN negates. With this wording DoN only negates ongoing abilities, and any instant abilities already completed stay completed. Can someone please confirm or deny this for me?

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2012, 08:59:11 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 15, 2012, 08:57:16 PM

I was under the impression that DoN does NOT interrupt, as it FIRST discards, THEN negates.

Correct. DoN discards the art before it negates it. This is why Lampstand of the Sanctuary is protected from DoN.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2012, 09:02:20 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on February 15, 2012, 08:59:11 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on February 15, 2012, 08:57:16 PM
I was under the impression that DoN does NOT interrupt, as it FIRST discards, THEN negates.
Correct. DoN discards the art before it negates it. This is why Lampstand of the Sanctuary is protected from DoN.

Right, which in this case would mean an evil card discarded would NOT be returned, correct? That is what I want to make sure I have clarified.

Red Wing · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2012, 09:05:21 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 15, 2012, 09:02:20 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on February 15, 2012, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: Redoubter on February 15, 2012, 08:57:16 PM
I was under the impression that DoN does NOT interrupt, as it FIRST discards, THEN negates.
Correct. DoN discards the art before it negates it. This is why Lampstand of the Sanctuary is protected from DoN.

Right, which in this case would mean an evil card discarded would NOT be returned, correct? That is what I want to make sure I have clarified.

That sounds right to me, but INE.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2012, 09:48:49 PM »

You can still negate it, though I can't tell you why...

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2012, 09:56:20 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 09:48:49 PM

You can still negate it, though I can't tell you why...

As in "I don't understand it myself" or "Shh...it's a secret"?

Because I don't see how it can negate an instant as opposed to an ongoing ability during the prep phase. I just want to make sure I've seen this ruled correctly so far.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2012, 10:01:08 PM »

As in "I can't quote where the REG says that" because I don't know what section it would be in.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:20:16 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 09:48:49 PM

You can still negate it, though I can't tell you why...

You can negate discarded cards, so long as the negating card can specifically target a discarded card. So DoN discards an Art, and negates the discarded Art, just like Captured Ark shuffles an Art, and negates the shuffled Art.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:29:03 PM »

As much as we complain about "play as", this is actually a very helpful entry:

Destruction of Nehushtan (Pa)
Type: Grim Reaper • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated. • Play As: Discard one Artifact to negate its special ability. • Identifiers: False Religious Practice • Verse: II Kings 18:4 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare).

It uses "cost - benefit" verbiage to explain "no discard = no negate".

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:37:24 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 15, 2012, 11:20:16 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 15, 2012, 09:48:49 PM
You can still negate it, though I can't tell you why...

You can negate discarded cards, so long as the negating card can specifically target a discarded card. So DoN discards an Art, and negates the discarded Art, just like Captured Ark shuffles an Art, and negates the shuffled Art.

I'm sorry, I don't think I made my question clear. I don't mean that it cannot negate it because the artifact is discarded by the time the negate occurs. I am asking if it is able to actually negate the instant (and resolved) ability of an artifact in the prep phase.

In this case, an evil card was discarded by said artifact. DoN comes along, discards it, then the negate happens. There is no ongoing ability, and I was not aware that instant, resolved abilities could be negated in the prep phase (or at any point outside of battle with an ITB, interrupt last, negate X, etc.). So, in this case, I was not aware that you could undo the discarding of your evil card, for instance, since the ability has resolved.

Hopefully my question is clearer now, sorry.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2012, 11:49:25 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on February 15, 2012, 11:37:24 PM

I am asking if it is able to actually negate the instant (and resolved) ability of an artifact in the prep phase.

Yes you can negate in the Prep Phase. Dominants can be played at any time, so this dominant in played in the same phase that the artifact was activated, so it can be negated. The rule you might be thinking of is the fact that negates can not happen in a later phase. So if the artifact used an instant ability in the Prep Phase, your opponent could not negate it in the Battle Phase.

Redoubter · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:04:22 AM »

Alright, thanks for clearing that up everyone. Up until now I just thought that instant vs ongoing mattered even in the same phase. Never had it come up, but good to know the ruling.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #24 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:50:14 AM »

Quote from: Red Warrior on February 15, 2012, 11:29:03 PM

As much as we complain about "play as", this is actually a very helpful entry:

Destruction of Nehushtan (Pa)
Type: Grim Reaper • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated. • Play As: Discard one Artifact to negate its special ability. • Identifiers: False Religious Practice • Verse: II Kings 18:4 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare).

It uses "cost - benefit" verbiage to explain "no discard = no negate".

Except that the Play-As actually changes what DoN does, therefore it's disguised as errata, therefore it is disregarded.

News:

Author Topic: Practice for Newer Tournament Judges... (Read 5664 times)

TheMarti

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk