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Author Topic: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros  (Read 1377 times)

Offline Professoralstad

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Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« on: August 31, 2015, 01:16:30 AM »
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Does CoA protect you from using the instead ability of Tartaros? Tartaros has a hold ability that allows you to hold a character in set aside. So while it is not a set-aside ability, it is sort of similar in my mind to a character protected from discard not being able to be discarded even if they are decreased to 0 (or 0.4 percent) toughness. If a hold ability would set a character aside, and the character is protected from being set aside, then it can't be held there. However, I am not 100% sure. Thoughts?

Covenant of Abraham: Use as an enhancement or an Artifact. No Evil Character may be set aside while this card is in play. (Effectively: Protect Evil Character from being set aside)

Tartaros: If your demon is discarded or captured, you may hold it here instead...etc. Identifier: Plays to set-aside area.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 02:04:52 AM »
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No, covenant can't target Tartaros in set aside. I also think it's probably a place ability not a set aside ability.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 02:33:46 AM »
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Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 31, 2015, 02:04:52 AM
No, covenant can't target Tartaros in set aside. I also think it's probably a place ability not a set aside ability.

Covenant of Abraham isn't targeting Tartaros, it's protecting the Evil Characters, so the first part is irrelevant. Secondly it may be a place ability (or a holds ability or whatever) but it's still setting the demon aside, and Covenant of Abraham protects it from being set aside, so the demon won't be set aside.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 10:39:48 AM »
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You raise an interesting question, Jordan.

Is set-aside a special ability or a location? The answer is both.

Then does Covenant with Abraham protect from set-aside special abilities or does it protect cards from moving to that location? The answer isn't entirely clear. Upon reading it, I assume it protects them from being moved to the location called set aside.

Is it possible to move a card to the set aside area without using a set-aside special ability? I believe that's what Tartaros is doing. Maybe it has an implied set-aside special ability? That's not how I see it but I'm open to the idea. I don't believe Tartaros fits the definition of a set-aside special ability as it's written in the REG.

Finally, where are the cards that are being set-aside? Since Tartaros uses "instead" the "place here" portion of the ability replaces any capture or discard effect. The demon remains in play where it is protected from Covenant with Abraham. If it's not a legal target to move to Tartaros, the capture or discard ability will still take effect.

TLDR: I believe Covenant with Abraham protects Evil Characters in play from moving to the set aside area (not just from set-aside special abilities). If that's accurate, it stops captured or discarded demons from moving to Tartaros.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 10:57:20 AM »
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Quote from: Gabe on August 31, 2015, 10:39:48 AM
You raise an interesting question, Jordan.

Is set-aside a special ability or a location? The answer is both.

Then does Covenant with Abraham protect from set-aside special abilities or does it protect cards from moving to that location? The answer isn't entirely clear. Upon reading it, I assume it protects them from being moved to the location called set aside.

Is it possible to move a card to the set aside area without using a set-aside special ability? I believe that's what Tartaros is doing. Maybe it has an implied set-aside special ability? That's not how I see it but I'm open to the idea. I don't believe Tartaros fits the definition of a set-aside special ability as it's written in the REG.

Finally, where are the cards that are being set-aside? Since Tartaros uses "instead" the "place here" portion of the ability replaces any capture or discard effect. The demon remains in play where it is protected from Covenant with Abraham. If it's not a legal target to move to Tartaros, the capture or discard ability will still take effect.

TLDR: I believe Covenant with Abraham protects Evil Characters in play from moving to the set aside area (not just from set-aside special abilities). If that's accurate, it stops captured or discarded demons from moving to Tartaros.

The TLDR is what I thought as well. With my decrease vs. discard example, protection from discard can protect from discard due to decrease, similarly, protection from set aside can protect from set aside due to other abilities (such as hold).
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 12:02:45 PM »
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I thought TGoTW + Pan Voided and Oak draw. So wouldn't the evil characters still be alive or is that different?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 12:05:03 PM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on August 31, 2015, 12:02:45 PM
I thought TGoTW + Pan Voided and Oak draw. So wouldn't the evil characters still be alive or is that different?

That's not the same thing.

I understand that you have issue with that ruling but bringing your issue here is not appropriate. That was the correct ruling as it was written when the question came up last year. We didn't like it either but it was accurate. We fixed the with the last REG update. It now works the way you want it to.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 06:49:23 PM »
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I'm not sure it matters, but I believe Covenant of Abraham is a prevent not a protect.  Which doesn't make sense to me.  Unless it has received recent errata?  But if it hasn't the source of the ability is in set aside (Tartaros) and the default of prevent targets things in play I think Covenant of Abraham can't stop Tartaros.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 07:09:11 PM by Kor »
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2015, 07:11:27 PM »
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The wiki has an incorrect play-as - it's a protect, not a prevent.  "No [card type] may" is a prevent, "No [card type] may be" is a protect.  Covenant of Abraham is the latter.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 07:17:59 PM »
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That has been the traditional play as for Covenant with Abraham, not just an idea taken from the wiki.  Similar to wool fleece which I believe is also a prevent.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Covenant of Abraham vs. Tartaros
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 07:26:10 PM »
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And Wool Fleece is the former, from my previous post.

You are correct on the traditional play as.  It was either incorrect, or the definition of protect has changed to include it.  Not exactly errata.
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