Please move and discuss this thread on playtesters board

[STAMP]

Rob and Playtesters, please reconsider the following ruling for placed cards that I recently heard about:

"Placed cards are read from their owner's perspective."

I have made some explanations why the ruling should be reconsidered in another thread here.  The primary reason is that the cards placed by Agur et al differ greatly from most other placed cards.  A card placed by Agur is not activated until later, whereas other placed cards are already active, i.e. the place ability is initiated by activating the placed card. 

If it is preferable to have a top-down rule, I believe the rule would be better if worded as such:

"Placed cards are read from the perspective of the player who activates the placed card."


Consider the impact if the current rule stands:

- If I select my hero when choosing the rescuer for my opponent, he gets to use the hero's special ability.  If I choose a hero with a weapon, he gets to use the hero and weapon's special abilities.  But if I choose a hero with placed enhancement, he only gets to use the hero's special ability.  This is not very consistent.

- The Darkness no longer works as intended.  The blocking player would not be able to use the evil character's special ability.

The Darkness (AW)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place an Evil Character from hand face down here. If an opponent begins a rescue attempt and chooses a blocker (or is unblocked), you may reveal this evil character. Blocking player may add it to the battle. Otherwise return it face down. • Play As: Place an Evil Character from hand face down here. At the beginning of battle, if an opponent begins a rescue attempt and chooses a blocker (or is unblocked), you may reveal this Evil Character. Blocking player may add to battle the Evil Character else return it face down. The Darkness may hold one Evil Character. • Identifiers: Play to territory. • Verse: John 3:19


Impact if current rule repealed and/or my proposed rule implemented:

- If I select my hero when choosing the rescuer for my opponent, he gets to use the hero's special ability.  If I choose a hero with a weapon, he gets to use the hero and weapon's special abilities.  AND if I choose a hero with placed enhancement, he gets to use the hero and enhancement's special abilities.  This IS consistent.

- The Darkness works as intended.


Between the fact that there is a character limit on posts and I haven't finished my regression analysis, I'll stop here.  But I just wanted to get the playtesters to start taking a look a this.  Thanks.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

Darkness still works because Add to Battle is a simple ability.

The only reason it does not work with Elishama and Co. is because of the triggered ability.

Weapons are placed on a character by game rule, and are included in the order of abilities for characters. Cards placed on heroes by ABILITIES such as Agur are not. The ability belongs to one player, and therefore only works for that player. In the other thread, you gave the example of Gathering of Angels... gained abilities work VERY differently from placed cards. It doesn't matter who plays Gathering of Angels because the ability BECOMES part of the card. (See Windows of Narrow Light vs Gained Abilities).

Case in point, if I use my special ability to place a card on a character, it only activates from my perspective.

[The Schaef]

Wwwwwwwwhy would the blocking player not get to use the card when the ability specifically says "blocking player may add the character to battle"?

Also, how does a placed card not work the next time, for example, the Hero enters battle, when all that needs to happen is the Hero enters battle?

[STAMP]

Wwwwwwwwhy would the blocking player not get to use the card when the ability specifically says "blocking player may add the character to battle"?

Also, how does a placed card not work the next time, for example, the Hero enters battle, when all that needs to happen is the Hero enters battle?

The character he is adding to battle is a placed card.  It is read from the owner's perspective according to the current ruling.

I don't quite understand the second question.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

Wwwwwwwwhy would the blocking player not get to use the card when the ability specifically says "blocking player may add the character to battle"?

Also, how does a placed card not work the next time, for example, the Hero enters battle, when all that needs to happen is the Hero enters battle?

The character he is adding to battle is a placed card.  It is read from the owner's perspective according to the current ruling.

Darkness still has nothing to do with this. There is no triggered ability that specifies when it activates. When a character enters battle, its ability is used by the player who controls it at that point. Simple.

Triggered abilities are very different creatures.

[The Schaef]

The character he is adding to battle is a placed card.  It is read from the owner's perspective according to the current ruling.

Yes, and from the owner's perspective, he can reveal the card if he chooses, and the blocking player can add it to battle if they choose.  I do not see how the perspective makes this not work.

The second question is: what, for example, Enhancement placed by Agur would not work when read from the owner's perspective?

[STAMP]

The character he is adding to battle is a placed card.  It is read from the owner's perspective according to the current ruling.

Darkness still has nothing to do with this. There is no triggered ability that specifies when it activates. When a character enters battle, its ability is used by the player who controls it at that point. Simple.

Triggered abilities are very different creatures.

This is pretty much the logic I used in the other thread to explain the Agur example.

The character he is adding to battle is a placed card.  It is read from the owner's perspective according to the current ruling.

Yes, and from the owner's perspective, he can reveal the card if he chooses, and the blocking player can add it to battle if they choose.  I do not see how the perspective makes this not work.

The second question is: what, for example, Enhancement placed by Agur would not work when read from the owner's perspective?

Based on the ruling, the placed card, which is the evil character, is read from the owner's perspective.  The Darkness is read from the owner's perspective but not due to the place rule but rather by game rule for activating fortresses.

As to the second question, according to the discussion I had with Polarius, pretty much all of them if I force my opponent to fight with the hero that is holding the placed enhancement.

[The Schaef]

Based on the ruling, the placed card, which is the evil character, is read from the owner's perspective.

The ruling refers to cards that have a "place" ability on them, and addresses cards that place themselves somewhere other than your territory.  The Darkness is not impacted the way you claim.

As to the second question, according to the discussion I had with Polarius, pretty much all of them if I force my opponent to fight with the hero that is holding the placed enhancement.

The place ability says that when the Hero enters battle, the card takes effect.  If it's my Hero and I read from my perspective, the Hero enters battle and the card takes effect.  If it's your Hero and I read the card from your perspective, the Hero enters battle and the card takes effect.  The wording of the place ability is the same from both perspectives.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

The second question is: what, for example, Enhancement placed by Agur would not work when read from the owner's perspective?

Since it doesn't work, and I thought of it on my own as well (you can ask Rawrlolsauce), and it's been posted on here before... I believe he is trying trying to place ANB on one of his heroes while he has Nazareth out, and then choose the rescuer to clear the opponents side of the field. That's really the only combo I can think of that relies on forced placing.

[The Schaef]

I'm not sure why that would not work.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

Because, ANB is read from the perspective of the player who placed it.

Nazareth protects you from abilities used by the opponent. In this case, ANB is triggered by the player who has Nazareth, and therefore shuffles in his cards as well.

[The Schaef]

Because, ANB is read from the perspective of the player who placed it.

This does not make sense.  Can anyone point me to the location of this ruling and its exact wording?  Cause I can't find it anywhere in the rules or REG or official ruling threads, I can only find references to it by other players.

[YourMathTeacher]

Oh good. STAMP and I have moral support from somebody with sway. Woo-hoo! 

[STAMP]

Because, ANB is read from the perspective of the player who placed it.

This does not make sense.  Can anyone point me to the location of this ruling and its exact wording?  Cause I can't find it anywhere in the rules or REG or official ruling threads, I can only find references to it by other players.

Oh good. STAMP and I have moral support from somebody with sway. Woo-hoo! 

Agreed.     GO SCHAEF!!

[The Schaef]

Well, I think the root of this problem is a misunderstanding of what's supposed to happen.  Without the actual rule in question, I can't make a proper assessment, but right now it's a coin flip about whether someone telephoned the rule into something different, or if the rule was worded with self-placing cards in mind and has been applied outside its original scope.

Bottom line, I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty Darkness et al are not supposed to be played the way they are presented here, and this just got taken down a rabbit hole somehow.

[Josh]

The second question is: what, for example, Enhancement placed by Agur would not work when read from the owner's perspective?

Since it doesn't work, and I thought of it on my own as well (you can ask Rawrlolsauce), and it's been posted on here before... I believe he is trying trying to place ANB on one of his heroes while he has Nazareth out, and then choose the rescuer to clear the opponents side of the field. That's really the only combo I can think of that relies on forced placing.

Don't forget having Rain Becomes Dust active

[STAMP]

Well, I think the root of this problem is a misunderstanding of what's supposed to happen.  Without the actual rule in question, I can't make a proper assessment, but right now it's a coin flip about whether someone telephoned the rule into something different, or if the rule was worded with self-placing cards in mind and has been applied outside its original scope.

Bottom line, I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty Darkness et al are not supposed to be played the way they are presented here, and this just got taken down a rabbit hole somehow.

The way I presented was based on what I heard.  I thought the way the ruling was being applied carte blanche to all place-type cards was wrong, and so I used the misinterpretation to show how ridiculous it was by showing what would happen to The Darkness.

Schaef, I think I've passed the baton to exactly the right person.  Thanks! 

[Lamborghini_diablo]

I know for a fact I've heard from several people that said the ANB placed combo doesn't work. So... I guess now we just wait on some other officials to come in and make a final ruling on this.

[The Schaef]

What is the reason for this?  I know you say it doesn't work; what I said was that I didn't see the reason why.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

The reason I heard was that since the triggered ability belongs to you, the card activates as YOUR card. Theres no game rule that allows the card to stay there. It's being held there by your card, and it's activation is triggered by your card. Therefore, there is no reason for it ever to go into your opponents control. Its not part of the hero, its just following it.

If I band to your hero with D Sin placed on it, does D Sin automatically negate my forts until the end of the phase? no. Its still YOUR card, being held there by YOUR ability.

Weapons are placed by game rule. There is no special ability holding them there, so they just become part of the character. This is why opponents can use weapons on your characters.

[The Schaef]

The reason I heard was that since the triggered ability belongs to you, the card activates as YOUR card.

Yeah, but what triggered ability, the one associated with the place ability, or the one on a completely different card?  I'll expand on this below.

Theres no game rule that allows the card to stay there. It's being held there by your card, and it's activation is triggered by your card.

If this was the case, then the Enhancement just wouldn't activate at all, for two reasons: 1). you can only play cards that match your character, and you can't match a good Enhancement if you are blocking, and 2). you can only play cards on your side of a battle.  So an Enhancement of yours that activates on the other side is complete nonsense anyway.

I am still of the mindset that this was meant to apply to how the effect of the placement is carried out.

[Minister Polarius]

I'll go try to dig up the thread where at least one elder shot the combo down. I cringe to think it may have just been SirNobody, but I can't help remembering Alstad confirmed it.

*EDIT* Here's SirNobody: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23304.0 Still trying to find the earlier thread.

[The Schaef]

I definitely need more than that.

I went back into the discussion archives and found an instance of Tim asking about this but a). there wasn't a detailed discussion with a consensus reached and b). all of the examples given were (exactly as I supposed) cards with an ability that place THEMSELVES somewhere and have a continuing effect.

I am still waiting to see any kind of an official, confirmed ruling on this for analysis.

[YourMathTeacher]

Hopefully this was just one big misunderstanding. 

[Lamborghini_diablo]

Agur: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately.

If this was the case, then the Enhancement just wouldn't activate at all, for two reasons: 1). you can only play cards that match your character, and you can't match a good Enhancement if you are blocking

"You may place an OT Enh... on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory." That clears up the brigade issue

2). you can only play cards on your side of a battle.  So an Enhancement of yours that activates on the other side is complete nonsense anyway.

"The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately." That clears up the activation issue.

I am controlling the card that TELLS the enhancement to activate. The opponent has NO control over Agur in this situation, so the trigger is always going to be read from MY perspective.

I'm not PLAYING any good enhancements while blocking, but rather, my good enhancement is activated by a trigger I set on a previous turn.