Author Topic: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp (Read 2020 times)

Gabe · « **on:** October 17, 2009, 01:51:51 PM »

It's been ruled that Arioch cannot discard a captured character from the land of bondage. I seem to recall the reason being that the captured character is treated as a Lost Soul. If that's the reasoning behind the ruling, can Arioch discard a capture Hero from Raider's Camp since they are not treated as a Lost Soul while in RC?

Arioch
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 10 / 7 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: If opponent does not have a prophet in play, you may discard a male human from your territory to place a Lost Soul beneath owner’s deck.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2009, 10:02:53 PM »

Basically, you're asking whether a "Character" retains the identifiers: "male" and "human" after it changes to a "Captured character".

I don't remember ever hearing of "Captured Characters" having gender or race before, so if I had to make a complete guess, I would say no.

sk · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2009, 11:04:54 PM »

Don't they still retain their "human" status for Leper Colony/Nero's Realm (or do those two unused cards no longer work)?

If so, it seems like gender would remain as well...

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2009, 11:17:00 PM »

Quote from: sk on October 17, 2009, 11:04:54 PM

Don't they still retain their "human" status for Leper Colony/Nero's Realm (or do those two unused cards no longer work)?

If so, it seems like gender would remain as well...

Nero's Realm just refers to NT Heroes and doesn't even mention "male" or "human" so it seems irrelevant.

Leper Colony does refer to "human Heroes", and would support them still retaining their humanity. However, it also calls them "Heroes", when they are no longer considered "Heroes", but "Captured Characters". Therefore, it's wording is obviously out of date and would be a questionable precedence.

Personally, I don't care which way this is ruled. But I don't see a compelling case based on those 2 cards.

sk · « **Reply #4 on:** October 18, 2009, 12:34:09 AM »

The REG is down, so I couldn't check what Realm said... thought it said 'NT human hero', but obviously not.

During the last tourney season, I was told that the two sites still work, so I figured that the wording is still acceptable. Would be good to clarify/confirm, though.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #5 on:** October 18, 2009, 04:00:57 PM »

Quote from: sk on October 18, 2009, 12:34:09 AM

During the last tourney season, I was told that the two sites still work, so I figured that the wording is still acceptable. Would be good to clarify/confirm, though.

I don't doubt that they still work. I just suspect that it is more of a "play as" situation where the words "human hero" are replaced with "captured character", but that's just a guess.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2009, 05:04:41 PM »

It is rather confusing how captured characters work. I'm curious as to how this discussion ends.

SirNobody · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:57:25 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 17, 2009, 01:51:51 PM

It's been ruled that Arioch cannot discard a captured character from the land of bondage. I seem to recall the reason being that the captured character is treated as a Lost Soul. If that's the reasoning behind the ruling, can Arioch discard a capture Hero from Raider's Camp sincethey are not treated as a Lost Soul while in RC?

I believe the ruling was that a captured character cannot be targeted based on an identifier, but identifiers on captured characters can be used to satisfy other conditions (such as U&T's condition). So Arioch couldn't discard a captured character in Raiders' Camp.

Also captured characters do retain identifiers such as human and gender.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:03:55 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 28, 2009, 04:57:25 AM

I believe the ruling was that a captured character cannot be targeted based on an identifier, but identifiers on captured characters can be used to satisfy other conditions (such as U&T's condition)...Also captured characters do retain identifiers such as human and gender.

So you're saying that captured characters are still human males. But they can't be targeted as human males. That doesn't make any sense at all.

SirNobody · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:26:14 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 10, 2009, 01:03:55 AM

So you're saying that captured characters are still human males.

Well some of them are, not all of them

Quote

But they can't be targeted as human males. That doesn't make any sense at all.

I agree, but that's what we get when we care way too much about keeping abilities short. We end up leaving out important words like "Hero" or "Evil Character" thinking they are unnecessary and we end up having to make a rule like this one to keep things from becoming broken.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2009, 08:00:33 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 10, 2009, 05:26:14 AM

Quote
That doesn't make any sense at all.
I agree, but that's what we get when we care way too much about keeping abilities short. We end up leaving out important words...

Then we should add "Play As" verbiage to those cards, instead of making up inconsistent rules.

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:57:24 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 10, 2009, 08:00:33 AM

Quote from: SirNobody on November 10, 2009, 05:26:14 AM
Quote
That doesn't make any sense at all.
I agree, but that's what we get when we care way too much about keeping abilities short. We end up leaving out important words...
Then we should add "Play As" verbiage to those cards, instead of making up inconsistent rules.

Arioch would need errata not just play as. I would be in favor of giving it to him, but don't think I could get enough support among the PTB to make it happen (I am much more accepting of Errata than some of the other PTBs).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:05:14 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 28, 2009, 04:57:25 AM

I believe the ruling was that a captured character cannot be targeted based on an identifier, but identifiers on captured characters can be used to satisfy other conditions (such as U&T's condition)...Also captured characters do retain identifiers such as human and gender.

Tim is correct about both the ruling and the reasoning behind it. I was a major part of that discussion.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 10, 2009, 01:03:55 AM

So you're saying that captured characters are still human males. But they can't be targeted as human males. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Prof Underwood is also correct, IMHO. As I pointed out in the original discussion, if my opponent has a captured prophet in his LoB that good enough to stop Arioch's SA. But if my opponent doesn;t have a good prophet Arioch can't use his SA to discard a captured human. One character caught by both horns.

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Author Topic: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp (Read 2020 times)

Gabe

Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

Prof Underwood

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

sk

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

Prof Underwood

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

sk

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

Prof Underwood

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

BubbleBoy

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

SirNobody

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

Prof Underwood

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

SirNobody

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

Prof Underwood

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

SirNobody

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp

EmJayBee83

Re: Arioch and Heroes in Raider's Camp