Author Topic: Philistine Priests vs. LotS (Read 4830 times)

Korunks · « **on:** March 30, 2010, 10:11:06 PM »

I asked this before in another thread, and got no answer. I will keep pinging this question until I get an answer. The Question is:

Does Glory of the Lord keep philistine priest's from deactivating Lampstand(in Solomon's Temple)? Or this like DoN and is a linked ability?

Philistine Priests

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 5 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may search draw pile for Temple of Dagon and put it in play. If another Philistine Evil Character is in play, you may negate and deactivate one O.T. Artifact in play. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Philistia, Priest • Verse: I Samuel 6:2 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)

Glory of the Lord

Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Place in territory. Holder's Solomon's Temple and the artifact in it cannot be discarded or negated by an opponent. Discard this card if Asherah Pole is in holder's Solomon's Temple. • Play As: Place in territory. Holder’s Solomon’s Temple and the artifact in it are protected from being discarded or negated by an opponent. Discard this card if Asherah Pole is in holder’s Solomon’s Temple. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Chronicles 7:1 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Ultra Rare)

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2010, 10:33:39 PM »

Glory specifically says that the Artifact it protects cannot be negated so Philistine Priests would not negate it. I don't see any reason that it cannot be deactivated.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2010, 10:34:47 PM »

However, the artifact would still fizzle starting next phase, correct?

Gabe · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2010, 10:47:14 PM »

Yes. Abilities only last until the end of the phase, so if the Artifact is no longer active at the start of the next phase, it's ability does not continue.

12tipton3 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2010, 12:10:36 AM »

what is the difference between negate and deactivate? they both do the same thing, to say they are different is just stupid!

(no offense meant. just humor.) can somebody explain this reasoning to me? i honestly don't get it.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2010, 12:23:18 AM »

Quote from: 12tipton3 on March 31, 2010, 12:10:36 AM

what is the difference between negate and deactivate? they both do the same thing, to say they are different is just stupid! (no offense meant. just humor.) can somebody explain this reasoning to me? i honestly don't get it.

Negate stops the ability right then. Deactivate does NOT stop the ability, it does flip it face down and it will be negated the next phase because it is not active.

12tipton3 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2010, 12:24:14 AM »

THANK YOU!!!!

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2010, 06:48:41 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 30, 2010, 10:33:39 PM

Glory specifically says that the Artifact it protects cannot be negated so Philistine Priests would not negate it. I don't see any reason that it cannot be deactivated.

For the exact same reason that Bryon ruled that DoN can't negate a card that it can't discard. At least that is how it strikes me at first blush.

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2010, 07:15:23 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 31, 2010, 06:48:41 PM

For the exact same reason that Bryon ruled that DoN can't negate a card that it can't discard. At least that is how it strikes me at first blush.

The major difference is that LotS is protected from being targeted by DoN. Glory does not keep Philly Priests from targeting anything.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2010, 07:25:10 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 31, 2010, 07:15:23 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 31, 2010, 06:48:41 PM
For the exact same reason that Bryon ruled that DoN can't negate a card that it can't discard. At least that is how it strikes me at first blush.

The major difference is that LotS is protected from being targeted by DoN. Glory does not keep Philly Priests from targeting anything.

That's not what Holder’s Solomon’s Temple and the artifact in it are protected from being discarded or negated by an opponent. says to me. Can you explain why this global protect does not keep Philly Priests from targeting the artifact?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2010, 07:38:33 PM »

LotS = Protect all cards not in battle from evil Doms

Don = Evil Dom

Glory = Protect Temple and Art from Negate and Discard

Philly Priests = Deactivate OT Art

How are these two things the same?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:40:33 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on March 31, 2010, 07:38:33 PM

LotS = Protect all cards not in battle from evil Doms

Don = Evil Dom

Glory = Protect Temple and Art from Negate and Discard

Philly Priests = Deactivate OT Art

How are these two things the same?

DoN Discard and Negate an artifact.

Philly Priest Negate and Deactivate an OT artifact.

12 Fingered Giant versus Protection of Angels--You cannot (generally) protect against a negate. So if all DoN said was "Negate an Artifact" LotS could be negated, precisely because it is not protected against negate (by game rule).

The reason DoN's negate does not work--despite LotS having no protection against it--is because the targeting occurs once. If you can't target for discard (which you can't because it is protected) you can't target for negate.

Philly Priest Negate and Deactivate an OT artifact.

Using the same logic of the DoN vs. LotS. If you can't target for the first SA (negate), you can't target for the second (deactivate).

I hope this clarifies the similarities I find in the situation.

Can you please explain at which point you believe my logic is faulty?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:41:20 PM »

The difference is that Philly Priests doesn't say "Negate an OT artifact. Deactivate negated artifact." It says the "deactivate" independently of the "negate."

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:58:48 PM »

DoN doesn't say "Discard artifact. Negate the discarded artifact." It says that "Discard one active artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated." It was ruled that the targeting of the second half of the SA was implicit in the targeting of the first.

Why do you feel this is different, BubbleBoy, in the case of Philly Priests vs. GotL? You are not claiming that I can negate one artifact and deactivate a second different artifact using Philly Priests--are you?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2010, 10:36:50 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on March 31, 2010, 08:58:48 PM

DoN doesn't say "Discard artifact. Negate the discarded artifact." It says that "Discard one active artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated." It was ruled that the targeting of the second half of the SA was implicit in the targeting of the first.

The way DoN is written, it seams clear that what it means is "Discard one active artifact in play. [That discarded] artifact's ability is negated," and it has been given a Play As to reflect this (I personally think the Play As should say, "Discard an artifact to negate that artifact," as it really works the same way as a cost-benefit ability, but whatever). If the first part of the ability does not take place, the second part is unable to.

Quote

Why do you feel this is different, BubbleBoy, in the case of Philly Priests vs. GotL? You are not claiming that I can negate one artifact and deactivate a second different artifact using Philly Priests--are you?

No, I am not claiming that. The "negate" and "deactivate" abilities are clearly intended to be used on the same artifact. The DoN-Lampstand scenario would be identical to the Philly Priests-GotL scenario but for one difference: PP's second ability is not worded as being contingent upon the first ability, as is the case with DoN. In this case, then, we can apply the "do as much as you can" rule.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2010, 11:50:01 PM »

The problem I have, Bubble Boy, is that there is nothing in the wording of Philly Priests that makes its second special ability any less contingent upon the first special ability than is the case in DoN. Especially since traditionally two sentence special abilities (DoN) were treated as two separate abilities whereas contingent special abilites were lumped together into one sentence (Philly Priests).

Quote

The DoN-Lampstand scenario would be identical to the Philly Priests-GotL scenario but for one difference: PP's second ability is not worded as being contingent upon the first ability, as is the case with DoN. In this case, then, we can apply the "do as much as you can" rule.

Why? What is it about the wording of DoN that made it clear that its second SA only applies to the "[That discarded] artifact" (as opposed to "[That] artifact"). while in the case of Philly Priests the second SA applies to "artifact" and not "negated artifact?"

What about the simpler case of Useless Fires--can it deactivate an artifact protected by GotL? Why or why not?

Useless Fires SA Negate and deactivate an O.T. Artifact.

Korunks · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2010, 08:23:43 AM »

Quote

What is it about the wording of DoN that made it clear that its second SA only applies to the "[That discarded] artifact" (as opposed to "[That] artifact"). while in the case of Philly Priests the second SA applies to "artifact" and not "negated artifact?"

There was absolutely Nothing clear about why DoN was ruled that way. It was one of those, "Oh well those abilities are supposed to be linked, so they are linked" rulings that made no sense to me. I don't argue with the PTB, but that seemed awkward to me. However the wording on the two cards is differentso I feel the DoN precedent does NOT apply here. Glory does not Protect against Deactivation, so the only question is, IS there another "hidden" linkage that will be arbitrarily applied to this card as well?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2010, 08:47:33 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on April 01, 2010, 08:23:43 AM

Quote
What is it about the wording of DoN that made it clear that its second SA only applies to the "[That discarded] artifact" (as opposed to "[That] artifact"). while in the case of Philly Priests the second SA applies to "artifact" and not "negated artifact?"

There was absolutely Nothing clear about why DoN was ruled that way. It was one of those, "Oh well those abilities are supposed to be linked, so they are linked" rulings that made no sense to me. I don't argue with the PTB, but that seemed awkward to me.

I think the rule was made to keep Lampstand more powerful (so that you couldn't just negate it for one round in which you play all your evil doms). Perhaps it isn't so obvious that it was worded as a cost/benefit type ability. But it is now, and Philly Priests is not, and if you have a problem with it I would take it up with the PTB, not me.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** April 01, 2010, 09:02:24 AM »

Oh I have no issue with you

, I was just answering your question about what made it "clear". You see I was the tournament host that made the "wrong" decision to allow a one turn negate of LotS by a DoN, that prompted the thread where that was Ruled. It wasn't clear to me that they were linked, and since I have an apparent Deficiency in noticing these linkages I am asking for clarification. Does Philly Priest Deactivate a GOTL protected Lampstand? Someone with authority please answer.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2010, 09:31:45 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on April 01, 2010, 09:02:24 AM

Oh I have no issue with you

Oh, I was mainly directing that comment at MJB, who seems to want to pick on me.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2010, 02:04:24 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on April 01, 2010, 09:31:45 AM

Quote from: Korunks on April 01, 2010, 09:02:24 AM
Oh I have no issue with you
Oh, I was mainly directing that comment at MJB, who seems to want to pick on me.

I'm not picking on you. I am asking questions of the person who claims to have the answers.

That said, I would like to point out that DoN is not now, nor has it ever been ruled a cost/benefit ability, as you stated two posts back.

It was ruled that DoN's negate SA targeted a "discarded artifact," and since DoN couldn't target the artifact for discard, there was no target for negate. First Gabe and now you are quite emphatic that this is not the case for the two SAs in Philly Priests. My question is why are you so certain that this is the case?

I also asked if you felt the same could be said of Useless Fires. I chose Useless Fires as an example because it strips everything down to the bare essentials (and it has an SA that matches exactly how I originally thought Philly Priests' SA was written).

Korunks · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2010, 02:23:27 PM »

I do not wish to be annoying but I will be until I get an answer. Can one of the PTB please give me an answer on this? Both of these cards show up alot at both my playgroup and my tournaments. I do not want to rule incorrectly.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2010, 03:13:04 PM »

FWIW, Korunks, here is how I would rule these in a tournament...

DoN cannot negate LotS, GotL protected or not. This is the only one I am sure I am correct about.

Philly Priests would be able to deactivate a GotL protected artifact. The key here is that Philly Priests state that "you may negate and deactivate one O.T. Artifact in play." The key here is may meaning the negate is optional. I don't think being unable to target for an optional ability would cause the deactivation to fail. (I missed the "you may" in my initial read.) Although our reasons are different, I am in agreement with Gabe on the final result, so I think you can you feel pretty solid about this one.

Useless Fire would not be able to deactivate a GotL protected artifact. In this case the negate and deactivate are non-optionally linked. If you can't target for the negate then the deactivation should also fail to occur, for the same reason DoN can't negate LotS. I think this is correct, but I think this is shaky for the time being.

Korunks · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2010, 03:29:51 PM »

Well if we can reach a consensus that will have to be good enough for now. I just don't want to cause another long ruling thread by misruling.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2010, 04:46:54 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 01, 2010, 03:13:04 PM

DoN cannot negate LotS, GotL protected or not.

Philly Priests would be able to deactivate a GotL protected artifact. The key here is that Philly Priests state that "you may negate and deactivate one O.T. Artifact in play." The key here is may meaning the negate is optional. I don't think being unable to target for an optional ability would cause the deactivation to fail.

I would probably rule the same way in a tournament.

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Author Topic: Philistine Priests vs. LotS (Read 4830 times)

12tipton3

12tipton3