Author Topic: Philistine Outpost vs. the New Naz (Read 6200 times)

Korunks · « **Reply #25 on:** February 09, 2011, 09:39:48 PM »

Quote

I really don't care whether or not Susanna or Divination are search abilities or not, but I do think that False Peace, The Old Search, Warriors Gabriel, etc. should be searches because there is no difference in how it works compared to cards that say "Search"

And I understand the wording issues due to lack of consistency in the older sets, so I would prefer to see abilities be defined by how they work rather than the exact wording (even though it may be confusing to players who are just starting or annoying to some people)

I guess I am just the opposite, I believe cards should work how they are written unless there is a compelling reason to change them. Look at Warriors Battle prayer it is ruled how it is worded. Woman's Great Faith is also played as worded. I don't think we should just make exceptions for specific cards and not others. Either cards are played as worded (except for errata), or they aren't. Anything in between is unacceptable. Sometime older cards get to do special things because of their wording, I think that is a good thing.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #26 on:** February 09, 2011, 10:38:09 PM »

I agree with the above and feel that Susanna and Divination's "look abilities" should be "looked" at again and considered search abilities based on this part of the REG.

Instant Special Abilities > Search, Reveal, or Exchange
General Description
A search card allows you to look at the cards in a deck, artifact pile, or a player’s hand. Searching implies only you see the targeted card(s). Reveal means that all players see the targeted card(s). Random selection from an opponent’s hand or selecting from your own hand are not considered a search or a reveal. You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck (see Beginning a Game).

A revealed card is considered to be in the same location from which it is revealed. Revealing a card makes the card visible to all players.

How to Play
A search can be used effectively to do one of the following: (1) find a card to use in the current battle, (2) find a card to use in a future battle, (3) see what cards remain in one of your opponent’s piles, or (4) see what cards remain in one of your piles. Play proceeds according to initiative rules. You must wait until the action of the enhancement card is completed before you can interrupt with another enhancement card. Your opponent may not block or play an enhancement while you are searching.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2011, 10:42:01 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 09, 2011, 09:39:48 PM

Quote
I really don't care whether or not Susanna or Divination are search abilities or not, but I do think that False Peace, The Old Search, Warriors Gabriel, etc. should be searches because there is no difference in how it works compared to cards that say "Search"

And I understand the wording issues due to lack of consistency in the older sets, so I would prefer to see abilities be defined by how they work rather than the exact wording (even though it may be confusing to players who are just starting or annoying to some people)

I guess I am just the opposite, I believe cards should work how they are written unless there is a compelling reason to change them. Look at Warriors Battle prayer it is ruled how it is worded. Woman's Great Faith is also played as worded. I don't think we should just make exceptions for specific cards and not others. Either cards are played as worded (except for errata), or they aren't. Anything in between is unacceptable. Sometime older cards get to do special things because of their wording, I think that is a good thing.

Why can't some cards work the way they are worded and some play differently due to breakage of the game? Do you really want to play the literal ability on TRA?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #28 on:** February 10, 2011, 12:19:01 AM »

I have no problem with cards acting like they are worded, but Abilities on cards should be defined by a set of Keywords (such as they are trying to do in the REG and such) rather than trying to make cards that do different things defined by the same keyword because of old wording.

Susanna and Divination are very much like both searches and reveals so I have little issue with making it work like either one, but if "Look" is defined as more like a "Reveal" rather than a "Search" that shouldn't affect things that work like "Searches" like Gabriel or Search.

Yes in theory in a perfect world all abilities would be described by proper and consistent keywords that are well defined and easy to understand (assuming you have access to all the documentation and such) but since that's not how the game has always been and Redemption doesn't like doing mass erratas to fix all the wordings on cards (or at least they don't do it)

But I think abilities that do the same thing should be the same abilities and if they do different things they should be different. But as I already said Susanna and Divination do very similar things to both searches and reveals so I don't mind either ruling (except that it makes decks using them weaker to anti searches but that's minor to making the game work)

Korunks · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2011, 09:29:44 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 09, 2011, 10:42:01 PM

Why can't some cards work the way they are worded and some play differently due to breakage of the game? Do you really want to play the literal ability on TRA?

You might have missed me saying so, but I did say with the exception of errata. I understand some cards have to change due to breakage of the game. I also understand that if a card does not break the game it is normally playes as worded(like my examples Great Faith, Battle prayer, etc.) I just feel that if they don't break the game they should be left alone.

Master Q · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:38:23 AM »

The problem with Susanna and Divination is that they are more like search abilities than look abilities (ex. Foretelling Angel, Strength Revealed) in my mind.

I was half-kidding when I asked if the old Search should be stopped by Naz; of course it should, it's the very definition of searching. Just because the word look is in the ability doesn't mean it should just be a 'look' ability: it can be both, which is exactly what Divination and Susanna are.

By the by, what is the exact definition of a 'look ability' anyways?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #31 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:45:47 AM »

A search ability with a limited scope.

JonathanW · « **Reply #32 on:** February 10, 2011, 12:41:35 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 10, 2011, 10:45:47 AM

A search ability with a limited scope.

would that include eve

SomeKittens · « **Reply #33 on:** February 10, 2011, 01:17:06 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 10, 2011, 10:45:47 AM

A search ability with a limited scope.

I'm not an elder. This is what I think defines a "look" ability, which is different than search!

Professoralstad · « **Reply #34 on:** February 10, 2011, 01:28:08 PM »

Look abilities and Search abilities were recently ruled to be distinct. The REG needs to be updated, but if I recall correctly, the distinction has been made in one of the New Rulings threads. As to the old "search" cards that say "look at draw pile...shuffle" they will probably either receive errata, or Look at and Search will be defined as follows:

Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and possibly perform an action with one or more of those cards. The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default.

Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #35 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:11:08 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 01:28:08 PM

Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?

Bryon · « **Reply #36 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:26:31 PM »

I'm going to try to modify Prof's suggested definitions how I understand them:

Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."

Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #37 on:** February 10, 2011, 02:27:26 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 10, 2011, 02:11:08 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?

She does say Search, but her ability does function as a look at ability instead of a search, so she'll get some sort of clarification on that point. I'm not sure why you bolded the part you did; if you mean that because you have to reveal a card so that your opponent knows it is evil, that would be a part of the action you perform as a default to both Search and Look At abilities. However, you don't reveal any other cards of your deck, so her ability is in fact a look at ability the way I understand it.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #38 on:** February 10, 2011, 03:13:38 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 10, 2011, 02:27:26 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 10, 2011, 02:11:08 PM
Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 01:28:08 PM
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.
So, Zeresh isn't a look ability?

She does say Search, but her ability does function as a look at ability instead of a search, so she'll get some sort of clarification on that point. I'm not sure why you bolded the part you did; if you mean that because you have to reveal a card so that your opponent knows it is evil, that would be a part of the action you perform as a default to both Search and Look At abilities. However, you don't reveal any other cards of your deck, so her ability is in fact a look at ability the way I understand it.

Whoa, that was weird. I haven't gotten used to mod powers yet I guess, since I totally just changed your post instead of quoting you. In this case I agree with Ring Wraith...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** February 10, 2011, 03:41:35 PM »

Whoaa, I guess I have a multi-personality disorder. I just answered my own question and I don't even remember typing it!

Got it. I was thinking it was connected with the "perform an action with those cards" for some reason.

adotson85 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:00:11 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 10, 2011, 02:26:31 PM

I'm going to try to modify Prof's suggested definitions how I understand them:

Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."

Naz stops Search abilities, but not look at abilities.

This looks pretty good to me. The two main differnetiating factors I see between look and search are: 1) Shuffling or not shuffling your deck after the ability completes and 2) The number of cards you get to view. I'm just glad an effort is being made to make a top down ruling instead of trying to rule on specific cards on a case by case basis.

Korunks · « **Reply #41 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:04:42 PM »

Quote

Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."

Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #42 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:11:04 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 04:04:42 PM

What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?

Well, that's a huge portion of it. T2 was overwhelmed by search abilities, and Nazareth was created to counter that. Search and False Peace are two of the worst offenders, and wouldn't be changed at all if read directly.

adotson85 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:19:09 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 04:04:42 PM

Quote
Look at=Allows you to see a specified amount of cards in a location (usually a deck) without revealing them to other players, and possibly perform an action with those cards. The cards by default are returned to the same location in the same order they came from, unless otherwise specified.

Search=Allows you to see all of the cards in a location (usually a deck or discard pile) and definitely perform an action with one or more of those cards (if a target is found). The pile you used for the search is shuffled by default. In other words, a Search ability is ALWAYS paired with another ability (discard, take into hand, etc.). If no paired ability is listed with the Search ability, then there is an assumed default of "take it into hand."

Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?

I am usually a fan of playing cards as they are worded, but in this case since look and search were ruled as different abilities then we need clear cut definitions of what each ability is. Yes, the card may say one thing, but the action being performed is different from what the card actually reads. Life was easier when search and look were the same ability lol.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #44 on:** February 10, 2011, 04:23:06 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 04:04:42 PM

Thats going to be confusing though. We will now have cards that say "search", that aren't search abilities and cards that say "look" which aren't look abilities. I thought we were trying to make the rules simpler? Why can't it just be search cards are cards that say search, and look cards say look. What is the impetus for this decision other than a desire to not let the older cards be exempt from Nazareth?

While that's certainly not the ideal situation, abilities do need to be defined in Redemption. It was decided that "look at" and "Search" are distinct abilities, so they need separate definitions.

That leaves us with two possibilities:

1. Saying that a card that says "Search" is a "Search" ability even if it does what "Look at" is defined as, and saying that a card that says "Look at" is a "Look at" ability even if it does what "Search" is defined as.

2. Saying that a card that says "Search" but does what "Look at" is defined as has a "Look at" ability, and saying that a card that says "Look at" but does what "Search" does has a "Search" ability.

Either way, something will be inconsistent. The second option is preferable, however, because it favors the rules over specific cards, instead of vice versa.

Quote from: adotson85 on February 10, 2011, 04:19:09 PM

Life was easier when search and look were the same ability lol.

I don't disagree with that; I was not really adamantly for or against that change, but some Elders felt it was necessary.

Bryon · « **Reply #45 on:** February 10, 2011, 05:56:10 PM »

Here are the main differences between the defaults for "look at" and "search":

Look at:
- no other actions are taken by default. It takes a second ability to actually do something other than "look at" the cards.
- keep cards in same location after the look

Search for:
- Search is always paired with the word "for." By default, you get to "add it to hand." A different ability (such as "discard" or "put it in play") may supersede this.
- shuffle after the search

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:18:42 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 10, 2011, 05:56:10 PM

Here are the main differences between the defaults for "look at" and "search":

Look at:
- no other actions are taken by default. It takes a second ability to actually do something other than "look at" the cards.
- keep cards in same location after the look

Search:
- Search is always paired with the word "for." By default, you get to "add it to hand." A different ability (such as "discard" or "put it in play") may supersede this.
- shuffle after the search

The problem with the bolded part is that both Divination & Susanna put cards (potentially) on the bottom of the deck, so they do not stay in the same location. Plus for those two cards you "add it to hand" the cards you are looking for!

Bryon · « **Reply #47 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:57:41 PM »

Remember that I said "default"

"Default" means "What you do unless specified otherwise." If something else is stated, then you do that instead of the default.

If I have a card that says "look at your deck," then I put the cards right back where they were. Nothing else was stated, so the default is that the cards stay exactly as they were.

If I have a card that says "search your deck for an OT good card," then I get to put the OT good card in my hand, even though it was not stated. The add to hand is the default. Then I shuffle the deck, even though it was not stated. The shuffle is the default.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #48 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:26:54 AM »

Yay! More top-down rulings!

Pol, I have removed your image. If you would like an explanation, please PM me. ~ RDT.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #49 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:03:28 AM »

I just have to ask.

What was wrong with Look being a search ability? What was the reasoning for undoing that ruling?

News:

Author Topic: Philistine Outpost vs. the New Naz (Read 6200 times)

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Lamborghini_diablo