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Author Topic: Philistine Armor Bearer  (Read 1539 times)

browarod

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Philistine Armor Bearer
« on: April 14, 2012, 11:28:28 AM »
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Philistine Armor Bearer (FF)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 6 / 6 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: You may exchange this card with an evil Philistine in your deck or discard pile. Evil Enhancements remain in battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Philistia, Fought Earthly Battle



Is he generic? I see no indication from the card or REG that he is, nor does the verse show evidence of that (it refers to Goliath's specific armor, and by extension that armor bearer), so I'm not really sure why the status quo is that PAB is generic.

Impacts of this: Philistine Outpost
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 11:32:28 AM »
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See this thread from 2009.  Apparently he is generic.  I was looking that up for the same reason you were ;)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 11:35:31 AM »
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Apparently Mike never got around to changing the REG as he said he would in that thread. I will add it to the Official REG Corrections, and Philistine players can breathe a sigh of relief.
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browarod

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2012, 11:38:31 AM »
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So, PAB is generic because Armorbearer is? That seems like a lame reason, lol. If we really want consistency, they should both be unique since the verses refer to specific people (and not a group of people like the Pharisees, etc.). I thought the whole "'the' in the title" thing was just a helpful tip, not the actual rule.

Do I have to stop telling people to look at the verse for hints on uniqueness/genericness now? Because apparently the verse is ignored in some cases....
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2012, 11:47:53 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2012, 11:38:31 AM
Do I have to stop telling people to look at the verse for hints on uniqueness/genericness now? Because apparently the verse is ignored in some cases....

I agree. The verse indicates that this is specifically Goliath's Armorbearer.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 11:59:19 AM »
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Quote from: browarod on April 14, 2012, 11:38:31 AM
So, PAB is generic because Armorbearer is? That seems like a lame reason, lol. If we really want consistency, they should both be unique since the verses refer to specific people (and not a group of people like the Pharisees, etc.). I thought the whole "'the' in the title" thing was just a helpful tip, not the actual rule.

Do I have to stop telling people to look at the verse for hints on uniqueness/genericness now? Because apparently the verse is ignored in some cases....

If the verse was the primary argument for or against uniqueness, then a lot of Generic characters would be considered unique. Syrian Archer, for example. The verse specifies a single Archer that shot Ahab, but he has been ruled generic since 2003. There are probably dozens of other examples.

The best way to identify unique characters is when it is a specific name or names, when the name of the title encompasses everyone that has that title (the only example I can think of is Job's Three Friends, since there were only three of them), when the title has a "The" (The Strong Angel, The Destroyer, etc.) or they are ruled unique for gameplay reasons (Widow), though honestly she could probably be generic again since there are more options around a bunch of 3/1 Widows (due to Chemosh) playing AoCPs in T2 nowadays.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2012, 05:09:40 PM »
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Widow was not ruled unique for gameplay reasons. I was one of the people heavily involved in that discussion, and she was ruled unique for the very same reason that people are now saying Philistine Armorbearer is unique. Currently the distinctions are inconsistent. Rather than having "rules of thumb," I think we need to have an actual set of parameters for which characters are unique and which are generic. For the specific issue at hand, either Widow needs to be generic again or both Armorbearers, Syrian Archer and anyone else who meets the "verse talking about a specific person" need to be unique.
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browarod

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2012, 01:57:48 PM »
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I agree with Pol. The less "depends on the situation" rules in the game, the easier it is to teach, understand, and follow. The reason this came up was because I had been under the impression that the verse on a card affected more than just testament/book, but apparently it sometimes does and sometimes doesn't, and that's just plain confusing.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 07:43:40 PM »
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One thing to keep in mind is that the card designers are not handcuffed into making the identifiers of a card match the verse exactly.  Here's what I mean.  There were a lot of Philistine Armorbearors in Goliath's time (pretty safe assumption).  But suppose that the verse that describes Goliath's armorbearor is the only verse in the Bible that mentions Philistine armorbearors.  The Card Designer wants Philistine Armorbearor to be generic, and he wants a verse that at least gives an example, if not a description, of one.  So he/she picks the one available, which unfortunately only mentions one specific armorbearor.

Think about it.  Some verses don't even mention the characters they describe, like Angel Wars characters...  Goliath's armorbearor is at least a Philistine Armorbearor.  It's confusing when you go to the verse to figure out if the character is unique or generic, but I find no problem with this.  It ultimately gives Card Designers more freedom.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 08:22:58 PM »
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My basic argument for why Philistine Armor Bearer should be generic is because it says Philistine Armor Bearer, not Goliath's Armor Bearer. The verse indicates that it's a specific person, however, the card itself is not referring to that specific person, rather, it's referring to any generic Philistine Armor Bearer. As jmhartz said, that might just be the most convenient (or only) verse that mentions a Philistine Armor Bearer.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Philistine Armor Bearer
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 09:06:34 PM »
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New rule: only plural characters are generic   ;)
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