Author Topic: Sower vs Pharoah's Throne Room (Read 2289 times)

elyonsjustice · « **on:** December 11, 2011, 10:10:25 AM »

Sower- You may place a good enhancement from hand on a human evil character. After battle, discard that enhancement to convert that character to a hero.

Pharoah's Throne Room- Protect Egyptian evil characters in your territory from discard and conversion...

Scenario:

Sower is placed into battle and places a good enhancement on an EC in opponent's territory. That EC is placed into battle. Sower withdraws/is forced from battle unharmed. Does that EC become a GC at that point because the battle is resolved? Or is it prevented from becoming a GC because after the battle it returns to its territory where it cannot be converted due to Pharoah's Throne Room.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2011, 10:41:14 AM »

EC would be converted before going back to territory.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2011, 12:40:50 PM »

The character would be back in territory and protected.

browarod · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2011, 02:18:15 PM »

Based on the ruling for Habakkuk, "after battle" triggers are resolved after resolution but before surviving characters return to territory. Therefore, I assume the same would be the case here since the wording is the same.

STAMP · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2011, 02:47:56 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 13, 2011, 02:18:15 PM

Based on the ruling for Habakkuk, "after battle" triggers are resolved after resolution but before surviving characters return to territory. Therefore, I assume the same would be the case here since the wording is the same.

Correct.

This thread points out the steps that occur at the end of a battle phase. Keep in mind they are steps occurring in order, and not just a bunch of options that can occur in any order like the prep phase!

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2011, 02:58:57 PM »

Pol is right. Otherwise wandering spirit would be able to place Demon behind the idol under deck if he was killed by his own ability as his triggers would fire just like Habakkuk's. It turns out they don't because after battle mean in territory so ws ability is not active. The one you are thinking of is at the end of battle, which happens after resolution and before characters return to territory.

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2011, 03:29:54 PM »

Yep. Throne Room protects that EC.

browarod · « **Reply #7 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on December 13, 2011, 02:58:57 PM

wandering spirit would be able to place Demon behind the idol under deck if he was killed by his own ability

I didn't know WS didn't put DBtI beneath. Where did you get that ruling?

STAMP · « **Reply #8 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:20:34 PM »

Ok, I'll just cut-n-paste:

Quote from: TimMierz on December 06, 2011, 04:30:43 PM

The rulebook has this as the battle structure:

Battle Phase (encompasses everything below)
A. Begin a battle (or don't)
...1. Hero leaves hand or territory
...2. Hero enters Field of Battle
[etc.]
B. Block (or don't)
C. Initiative check, playing cards, etc.
D. Battle resolution
...1. End battle
...2. End of battle or final battle outcome abilities trigger
...3. Discard defeated characters
...4. Redeem soul
...5. Return surviving characters
...6. Discard characters at */0
...7. Experience Credit
...8. Ongoing abilities end

"Final battle outcome abilities trigger" sounds like when an "After battle" ability like Uriah's would happen, which is before he returns to territory.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 13, 2011, 07:28:25 PM »

Final outcome abilities would be abilities like "if defeated do x".

Quote from: browarod on December 13, 2011, 05:10:22 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on December 13, 2011, 02:58:57 PM
wandering spirit would be able to place Demon behind the idol under deck if he was killed by his own ability
I didn't know WS didn't put DBtI beneath. Where did you get that ruling?

From Polarius and Professor Alstad

browarod · « **Reply #10 on:** December 14, 2011, 01:52:38 PM »

I trust the rulebook and TimMierz over Polarius any day. Prof Alstad, however, would have a legitimate claim if he were to post here seeing as he's an elder.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:38:11 PM »

The rule book does not prove your point. I see it this way, "after battle" is equivalent to after the battle phase and at that point the characters are in territory.

Also there is no need to choose sides on ruling authority.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:42:17 PM »

Hobbit, if what you're saying is true, than Uriah protects himself from discard. (Thanks STAMP).

Actually, some have proved to be more reliable when reporting the rules than others.

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2011, 02:49:00 PM »

Also, if Hobbit is correct, Habakkuk in a side battle would have to wait til after all battles concluded to discard anything. This does not seem consistent. After battle seems more logical to mean after the specific battle ends, not the battle phase (considering it says "battle" and not "battle phase").

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:17:03 PM »

Those are valid points there is obviously a problem here. I am going to back out now and wait for profs and pols responses.

TimMierz · « **Reply #15 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:20:06 PM »

Quote from: browarod on December 14, 2011, 01:52:38 PM

I trust the rulebook and TimMierz over Polarius any day. Prof Alstad, however, would have a legitimate claim if he were to post here seeing as he's an elder.

Heh, my name attached to anything isn't a shining endorsement for it. But apparently some cards are being played inconsistently. Let's find out which ones.

browarod · « **Reply #16 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:36:49 PM »

So, to sum up for any potential elders that want to come and post, I think the two main ideas at this time are as follows:

1. "After battle" means after the battle phase ends, so it would be the first thing that happens in the discard phase (or perhaps as some phase-less ability between the battle and discard phases) and, as such, means that all surviving characters have returned to territory where they would be protected by protect forts.

2. "After battle" means as soon as the battle it's activated in is over, which is before the battle phase ends, and so the surviving characters would still be in battle and not protected by protect forts.

Admittedly, Stamp's REG quote is open to interpretation (what exactly constitutes "End of battle or final battle outcome abilities trigger"?) and either description seems valid.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** December 14, 2011, 03:49:32 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on December 13, 2011, 05:20:34 PM

Quote from: TimMierz on December 06, 2011, 04:30:43 PM
The rulebook has this as the battle structure:

Battle Phase (encompasses everything below)
...2. End of battle or final battle outcome abilities trigger
...5. Return surviving characters

It seems to me that there is a difference between "after the battle" abilities and "end the battle" abilities. Therefore, I don't think that particular quote from the rulebook solves this issue.

- Regarding Demon Behind the Idol, I don't see any reason why it would be bad for his discard to happen after the entire battle phase is over (therefore he would no longer be sent to the bottom by Wandering Spirit).
- Regarding Habbakuk, I don't see any reason why it would be bad to wait until the entire battle phase is over before discarding someone.
- Regarding Uriah the Hittite, this interpretation would mean that he would be in territory and therefore protecting himself from his own discard. This would seem to be a problem and might require an errata to solve.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 14, 2011, 04:04:02 PM »

Does it matter that Uriah protects himself? I mean wouldn't all after the battle abilities be ended (step

before you get to the point were they would take actually take affect (since after the battle abilities are ongoing), essentially making them useless?

TimMierz · « **Reply #19 on:** December 15, 2011, 10:31:06 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 14, 2011, 03:49:32 PM

- Regarding Habbakuk, I don't see any reason why it would be bad to wait until the entire battle phase is over before discarding someone.

Habakkuk specifically says "After this battle". As it's been determined that side battles have their own entire Battle Phase including Battle Resolution, it'd be strange if Habakkuk didn't do something after the battle he's in.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2011, 12:28:04 AM »

He would.

Browarod's stunning rudeness aside, I stand by my position. @Tim, would there need to be a distinction there on Habakkuk? "After this battle" is no different from "after battle," and if Habakkuk were involved in a side-battle his ability would take place following the resolution of the side-battle.

TimMierz · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2011, 11:01:35 AM »

Okay, I thought Prof U was suggesting that Habakkuk wouldn't do anything until the main battle phase, which struck me as inconsistent, but re-reading his post now suggests that's not what he intended. So, as usual, ignore me.

elyonsjustice · « **Reply #22 on:** December 24, 2011, 08:52:52 PM »

So maybe I'm just a little dense this time, but I don't feel like I got a good resolve on this. Some say this way, others that way....

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** December 25, 2011, 05:54:04 PM »

Quote from: elyonsjustice on December 24, 2011, 08:52:52 PM

So maybe I'm just a little dense this time, but I don't feel like I got a good resolve on this. Some say this way, others that way....

I hate to be blunt, but get used to it. The Elder system solved some of the problems, but we still end up with threads like this.

News:

Author Topic: Sower vs Pharoah's Throne Room (Read 2289 times)

Chronic Apathy

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod

TheHobbit13