Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I searched for the answer but didn't find it.  Since Isaiah's Call says that Isaiah is the one to negate evil characters (and not the Call enhancement itself), Creeping Deceiver is not negated, correct?

Isaiah's Call: Search deck or discard pile for Isaiah and put him in play. Place on Isaiah: While in battle, Isaiah has Site access and negates Lost Souls, Sites and Evil Characters.

Creeping Deceiver: Protect up to 3 N.T. Lost Souls in Sites from rescue. May band to a heretic or N.T. female Evil Character. Cannot be negated by a character.

So James, son of Alphaeus (chosen due to numbers, not SA) enters battle, I block with Creeping Deceiver, opponent drops Reach + AoCP, the lost souls are still protected?  I didn't know Creeping Deceiver was so strong 

Actually the only ways to negate Creeping Deceiver are Covenant with Death and Iron Pan.

Holy cow... CBN by a character actually means CBN by a character or an enhancement played on a character? That is extremely counterintuitive to me.

Holy cow... CBN by a character actually means CBN by a character or an enhancement played on a character? That is extremely counterintuitive to me.

It's actually extremely intuitive, if you'll follow my logic for a bit:

"Immune to lone Heroes" has always meant that lone Heroes could not defeat the card by its own SA, its own numbers, or the SAs/numbers of enhancements used by lone Heroes.

"Protected from Evil Characters of toughness X or less" has been ruled to mean that the Characters' numbers/SAs/Enhancements cannot affect the protected.

"Cannot be negated by a Philistine", had been ruled to mean that it cannot be negated by an enhancement played by a Philistine, otherwise when David's Triumph came out, it would not have made any sense. Now of course we have Saph, but still, it would seem odd for any other Philistine to use a negate to stop it as long as the negate wasn't on the Philistine card.

All that said, we have a long-standing principle that effects of enhancements are indirectly effects of the characters who play them. Thus, when a card says that it cannot be negated by a Hero, it means that it cannot be negated by a Hero's ability, nor the ability of any enhancements played by Heroes.

Is the second part Isaiah's call a gained ability since it says that Isaiah does the ability?

No, it is still an ability on Isaiah's Call.  Just because Call says that "Isaiah negates", that does not mean that he now somehow has this ability like you have with Gathering of Angels or the like that grant the ability and then are no longer in play causing it to happen.  Call is the source, still in play and causing it to happen.  It can still be negated, it is not gained.

Btw, gained abilities per the REG are not necessarily CBN, just gained abilities from set aside, though in this case it would be CBN anyway because Isaiah himself is CBN.

I guess we should say that for the benefit of those who didn't have to listen to you from the other room

Anyway, Isaiah cannot make that ability CBN, because his ability says that "good Isaiah cards cannot be negated."  The ability is not on a good Isaiah card that is being played or yet to be played, therefore, it cannot be made CBN.  It is still located on another card, which has already been played.

Since I'm arguing that the ability on Isaiah's call gives Isaiah the ability, and Isaiah makes himself CBN, then yes it would be CBN.

The card Isaiah does not have the ability.  Not sure how much more than that can be said.  Only good Isaiah cards are CBN, not "good Isaiah cards and any abilities that they use."  Isaiah is the one who uses enhancements and is the source of their abilities, but that does not mean we treat them as CBN as well.  Different case, but nothing changes the fact that the card Isaiah does not have that ability.

The only time Isaiah makes Isaiah's Call CBN is if you play it on him during battle (and then place it on him). If Isaiah's Call is played in territory nothing (that I can think of right now) can make it CBN.

Placed enhancements are not weapons, they do not activate (and be "played") each battle, they just have ongoing abilities. If a placed card is not CBN when first placed then it can never be CBN while it remains in play. Cards are either CBN/I/P when they are played or they aren't, they can't gain those statuses retroactively.