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Or you could just get your deck back by using Invoking Terror, Chariots, ANB, etc. Just because you can't rescue lost souls doesn't mean you can't battle.

Chariots needs an RA. The other two centralize the meta (which is exactly what this rule wants to stop). I don't get it.


Sidenote: The meta isn't even centralized. This is the most diverse meta I have ever seen.

It's not centralized around speed. It's centralized around offense. And the best offenses are the ones you actually get to use, which means they are the ones that draw faster.

These rules are trying to recentralize the game around defense, which is neither the intention of the game nor to the benefit of the game.

Think about offenses. Is TGT, Disciples, Genesis, or Samuel good because of drawing? Or are they really good, and are top teir because of drawing? This rule wouldn't change the decks we play. Good offenses are still good offenses. It would just result in more timeouts because people can't rescue.

Genesis and TGT are straight up good. Disciples and Samuel (what even constitutes a Samuel deck?) are only good because of drawing, and are B tier without it. Ahimilek decks (red/purple) would still be good, they'd just have to drop the Oaken Angel/Samuel, which may have been what you were referring to when you said Samuel, but let's face it, Samuel is only in there for the drawing.

Also, if you are referring to the "You cannot rescue if you have no deck" suggestion, I already conceeded that point. If you aren't, then I don't know how it would result in more timeouts. If the rule is you give your opponent a free lost soul, it would actually reduce timeouts.

As for it changing the decks, we would see a bit fewer speed cards (since Samuel decks hope to deck in 4 turns...) and more mono-offenses (which would result in some defense).

Granted, this may not be the best solution. But speed is a problem, and you said it best when I was going to play RDT at nats: "Do you really want to flip a coin for a national title?" That's what speed vs. speed matches are--a coin flip. What the best solution is, I'm not sure, but we won't find out unless we toss around ideas.

I debate the point that discples are good on straight up drawing. Samuel too.

Nobody uses Samuel for his band ability or his negate play ability. They use him for Angel Under the Oak's draw ability as well as his draw ability. Usually Samuel's Edict is thrown in just because it's awesome, but nobody uses Samuel solely for Samuel's Edict. Judges decks are not Samuel decks and are also not that good, contrary to all that you've said (but most people will agree with me on that).

Disciples have a total of 3 battle winners at best (AoCP, MLAMG, and...Faith as a Mustard Seed?). Speed was all that carried them. It's no coincidence they didn't place at nats. They just aren't that good without Boat, Reach, and Matthew. They do have good characters, I'll give them that, but Thad doesn't do much good without the other disciples, and the best way to get them is through speed. John is only good because everybody uses standalone defenses and he completely shuts them down. Philip was the best character in my Disciples deck due to the CBN Banding, protection, and search.

If we are flipping a coin for a National Title, why does Gabe have two and I have 0? He has only been to 2 extra Nats over me. Is he that lucky? If so, I should take a Nazarite vow too!

You mean you made me lose on purpose by feeding me lies that you don't even believe? That hurts. I'm going to unfriend you on Facebook now.

Seriously though, if Gabe is so good, why hasn't he placed in T1 for the last couple of years? Why did an 11 year old place higher than him at a district tournament? Some people are just better at flipping the coin than others, but the point still stands that Gabe sometimes loses because the coin flip doesn't go his way. Speed decreased the bad luck element initially, but speed vs. speed just increases the luck element because whoever gets the better draw should win.

So to answer your question, Gabe has done well because his decks best (or close to) eliminate the chances of the coin flip going the other way and he (generally) doesn't mess that up with dumb plays.

Nobody uses Samuel for his band ability or his negate play ability. They use him for Angel Under the Oak's draw ability as well as his draw ability. Usually Samuel's Edict is thrown in just because it's awesome, but nobody uses Samuel solely for Samuel's Edict. Judges decks are not Samuel decks and are also not that good, contrary to all that you've said (but most people will agree with me on that).

Judges are the key component in the best deck I've seen played this year in Type 1. It's a 63 card deck by the way.

Disciples have a total of 3 battle winners at best (AoCP, MLAMG, and...Faith as a Mustard Seed?). Speed was all that carried them. It's no coincidence they didn't place at nats. They just aren't that good without Boat, Reach, and Matthew. They do have good characters, I'll give them that, but Thad doesn't do much good without the other disciples, and the best way to get them is through speed. John is only good because everybody uses standalone defenses and he completely shuts them down.

Fall like Lightning. Sons of Thunder. Even Two By Two has potential to be good if you want to avoid speed or add cards.

You mean you made me lose on purpose by feeding me lies that you don't even believe? That hurts. I'm going to unfriend you on Facebook now.

Seriously though, if Gabe is so good, why hasn't he placed in T1 for the last couple of years? Why did an 11 year old place higher than him at a district tournament? Some people are just better at flipping the coin than others, but the point still stands that Gabe sometimes loses because the coin flip doesn't go his way. Speed decreased the bad luck element initially, but speed vs. speed just increases the luck element because whoever gets the better draw should win.

So to answer your question, Gabe has done well because his decks best (or close to) eliminate the chances of the coin flip going the other way and he (generally) doesn't mess that up with dumb plays.

My point is that the coin flip analogy is oversimplification.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 22, 2011, 10:49:38 PM

If we are flipping a coin for a National Title, why does Gabe have two and I have 0? He has only been to 2 extra Nats over me. Is he that lucky? If so, I should take a Nazarite vow too!

Deck building plays a part, too.

That was sort of my point.

You need to play more than.

More than what?

Ok, I saw you changed it, but it's too late. I'm letting everyone know.

Speed is no more of a coin flip than any other deck. If anything, it's less of a coin flip because you see a greater majority of your deck.

Speed is more prone to the snowball effect.

i'm going to say that is the only reason you play samuel is to draw two cards you don't play amuel right. His banding abiltiy makes him...

i'm going to say that is the only reason you play samuel is to draw two cards you don't play amuel right. His banding abiltiy makes him...

Angel + Oak = D4 + Edict.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 22, 2011, 11:33:37 PM

Quote from: Red on December 22, 2011, 11:31:21 PM

i'm going to say that is the only reason you play samuel is to draw two cards you don't play amuel right. His banding abiltiy makes him...

What useful heroes does he band to? I'm not saying he's bad, but his useful bands are fairly convaluted.

armorbearer+ismaiah+ashel+king saul drawing off of ttod. this does get out fast.

King Hiram instead of Saul draws more.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 22, 2011, 11:33:37 PM

Quote from: Red on December 22, 2011, 11:31:21 PM

i'm going to say that is the only reason you play samuel is to draw two cards you don't play amuel right. His banding abiltiy makes him...

What useful heroes does he band to? I'm not saying he's bad, but his useful bands are fairly convaluted.

armorbearer+ismaiah+ashel+king saul drawing off of ttod. this does get out fast.

That's definately "fairly convaluted". And it's not even close to the best band Samuel is a part of.