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We thought a possible rule for decking out might be that if you have no cards in your draw pile, you must discard one character you own from your territory. Since speed decks usually end up with a lot of characters out, this wouldn't be crippling, but would be a significant loss. You'd have to balance out the price of getting your cards out vs. the possible loss of a character every turn before you start your turn.

Seems interesting, but too watered down. Maybe something like: If you have no more cards in deck your opponent may discard a card from your territory during your upkeep.

I like the idea that you have to give your opponent a redeemed soul from your land of bondage, which would kill speed vs. speed. Having to rescue another lost soul would make getting rid of all your lost souls viable, so that would be cool, I guess, but wouldn't really slow down speed too much, it would just hurt speed vs. speed matches. Losing as a result of decking is ridiculous. I will remind you of CTB + Damsel + RBD. And that can be done multiple times. In the same turn...I may have to build a deck around that...

Or here's some options: 1. For each turn you are decked-out, increase the number of redeemed souls required for you to win the game until your opponent has decked out. or 2. If you have decked out and your opponent still has cards in their draw pile, you may not make a rescue attempt against that opponent until that opponent decks out. or 3. if you have decked out, set-aside a card from your territory until your opponent has decked out. or 4. Opponent may shuffle a card from their discard pile into their deck for each turn you have decked out until they have decked out. or 5. If you deck out before your opponent, you may not redeem any additional lost souls, once both players deck out game ends immediately.

I like #5, but would maybe modify it to something like you may not make a rescue attempt if you have no cards in your draw pile. That seems balanced and less extreme. I probably like this idea the best so far.

Quote from: theselfevident on December 21, 2011, 01:48:41 AM

Or here's some options: 1. For each turn you are decked-out, increase the number of redeemed souls required for you to win the game until your opponent has decked out. or 2. If you have decked out and your opponent still has cards in their draw pile, you may not make a rescue attempt against that opponent until that opponent decks out. or 3. if you have decked out, set-aside a card from your territory until your opponent has decked out. or 4. Opponent may shuffle a card from their discard pile into their deck for each turn you have decked out until they have decked out. or 5. If you deck out before your opponent, you may not redeem any additional lost souls, once both players deck out game ends immediately.

I like #5, but would maybe modify it to something like you may not make a rescue attempt if you have no cards in your draw pile. That seems balanced and less extreme. I probably like this idea the best so far.

You could also add to #5 that for tournament purposes, a game that ends "decked out" with neither player at 5 LSs counts as a timed-out win, which means fewer points in the standings. Speed vs. speed might end as a tie or 2-1 instead of 3-0 in that scenario.

I like #5, but would maybe modify it to something like you may not make a rescue attempt if you have no cards in your draw pile. That seems balanced and less extreme. I probably like this idea the best so far.

I love this idea.  This should be tested in ROOT immediately, IMHO.  You don't necessarily lose by decking, but it could still punish the person that speeds through their deck too fast.

A few reservations:  This will cause speed deck players to adapt strategies to add cards to deck at end game.  Invoking Terror would become even more of a staple in decks.  Any TC enhancements that cause a card to go to your deck will become very valuable to a speed deck, since they will allow the deck to make RAs once the deck is exhausted.  Also, Chariot/David's Harp would get used to "add" to the deck.  Imagine a Samuel deck that throws in Uriah and uses his ability to discard himself (and an EC) and thus go to deck after battle via Chariot or David's Harp.  You might even see decks use Pigs LS/Bronze Laver to implement strategies that allow you to have cards in deck by the end of your prep phase.

How would this be that much different from the initial idea?

Quote from: adotson85 on December 21, 2011, 02:02:09 AM

I like #5, but would maybe modify it to something like you may not make a rescue attempt if you have no cards in your draw pile. That seems balanced and less extreme. I probably like this idea the best so far.

I love this idea.  This should be tested in ROOT immediately, IMHO.  You don't necessarily lose by decking, but it could still punish the person that speeds through their deck too fast.

A few reservations:  This will cause speed deck players to adapt strategies to add cards to deck at end game.  Invoking Terror would become even more of a staple in decks.  Any TC enhancements that cause a card to go to your deck will become very valuable to a speed deck, since they will allow the deck to make RAs once the deck is exhausted.  Also, Chariot/David's Harp would get used to "add" to the deck.  Imagine a Samuel deck that throws in Uriah and uses his ability to discard himself (and an EC) and thus go to deck after battle via Chariot or David's Harp.  You might even see decks use Pigs LS/Bronze Laver to implement strategies that allow you to have cards in deck by the end of your prep phase.

I do agree that cards like the ones you mentioned would be more common, but isn't that the point. By adding in these cards they will have less room for speed or will need to put more cards in their deck. I don't see Chariot/David's Harp being a big issue, as you have to be able to make a RA for both to work. If you have no deck you can not make an RA if such a rule existed.

I don't buy the "if we make a rule change, these cards will become staples, and then they will be used instead of speed" argument.  There are plenty of rule changes that would slightly modify decks, but they're still speed decks.  The one ROOT tournament I actually finished, we were playing "Only rescue Opp's LS," and I didn't even modify my deck.  The decks I did play were still mostly speed decks, just with some extra soul generation.

Soul generation has always been a big part of speed decks. Sticking more cards in your deck is definitely not. And while most cards won't become staples, they will definitely see more play. Of course, it would only take two card (Damsel and Invoking Terror) to make this ruling pointless.

Everyone said the "opp's LS only" rule would slow down speed because they'd have to put more cards in their decks.  Naturally, they didn't.  They took other cards out.

I wasn't clear...I meant recycling cards back into the deck. The "opp's LS only" rule would hurt speed in some capacity if it caused them to change their decks. They were forced into a less idea situation. The less ideal we make speed, the better.

If this rule came into place, more people would want Recuring Cards, which I'd rather not have.

Im all about alternate win conditions

Let's all talk about how broken a Luke Offense and an Egyptian defense would be in this scenario.

lol at this rule idea.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on December 22, 2011, 08:49:38 PM

Let's all talk about how broken a Luke Offense and an Egyptian defense would be in this scenario.

lol at this rule idea.

Only broken if you go with losing if you deck. A consequence like no longer being able to rescue (which can be countered), giving your opponent a free lost soul, or giving up a redeemed soul, is not broken in the least.

No longer being able to rescue is incredibly bad. Let's say you use a Luke offense/Egpyptian defense and can discard 1 card and draw one card for the opponent per turn. That results in a 56 card deck decking in 9 (+4 cards) turns versus 15  turns.
That means that an average 56 deck now has to win in 9 or ten turns, which, if the discarding hit SoG, it incredibly challenging. Even if it doesn't hit SoG, that's a steep task. When you consider variables such as soul drought, etc, that means you might only get 5 or less turns to score at least 3 souls. No thanks.