Author Topic: Paul. Hidden treasures (Read 12026 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #25 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:14:45 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 24, 2018, 03:11:58 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 02:28:10 PM
Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.

Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.

What if I have a really big wrecking ball?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #26 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:20:57 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 24, 2018, 03:14:45 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 24, 2018, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 02:28:10 PM
Sorry Kevin I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say. I do know that Hidden Treasures is a whole ability and the play the next enhancement is an effect of the ability. You can still negate the trigger even though the playability is already taken place. The playing of the enhancement cannot be interrupted but it can still be traced back to a loan green hero and that was negated so then not alone should be negated as well or we need to change the Cascade negate rules.

Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.

What if I have a really big wrecking ball?

The force of the impact takes out the second floor and the third floor (Paul) but can't harm the adamantine support beams of the first floor or the fourth floor's (Paul's abilities) iron framework (CBN).

Reth · « **Reply #27 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:25:39 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on July 24, 2018, 02:41:54 PM

Sam (from ROA) would negate HT before it activates. but, we are talking about the CoW Samuel, who doesn't negate play abilities.

But HT activates already in prep whereas Sam activates in battle. Or does the play effect of HT activates not before the Hero enters battle? And in latter case: Which ability activates first then? Sams or HTs?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #28 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:28:21 PM »

Quote from: Reth on July 24, 2018, 03:25:39 PM

Quote from: Ironisaac on July 24, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Sam (from ROA) would negate HT before it activates. but, we are talking about the CoW Samuel, who doesn't negate play abilities.
But HT activates already in prep whereas Sam activates in battle. Or does the play effect of HT activates not before the Hero enters battle? And in latter case: Which ability activates first then? Sams or HTs?

While HT does activate in prep, the play ability is the only thing that is CBI and that doesn't activate until the trigger completes which is after Sam's ability resolves.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:40:29 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 24, 2018, 03:11:58 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 02:28:10 PM
Even if you could negate the trigger separately from the play ability (Which Guardian already told you you can't) that wouldn't cascade Not Alone. Cascade negate basically means is if you destroy the foundation of a building, the whole thing collapses. In this case, the first floor (the play ability) has external support beams (CBI) so even if you take away part of the foundation (trigger) the first floor can keep the second floor (Not Alone) from collapsing.

As for the Guardians portion where he said you cannot negate the trigger. Like I said that's not entirely true. The play the next enhancement is an effect that is part of the whole ability. The play the next enhancement affect of the ability cannot be interrupted but the rest of it can. Not alone can also be traced back to Hidden Treasures. Therefore it negates not alone.

how is the scenario that we are talking about any different than this scenario?

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 28, 2018, 12:52:07 PM

Jeremy. Takes hero out.
Alex. Takes the harlot out and bands to NEBI. NEBI gets Swift horses. Swift horses draws two and plays unified language and bands to NERGALSHAREZER.
Jeremy’s initiative.
He plays Overcome which he negates the harlot who began the banding chain.
What happens next?

Your answer.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 28, 2018, 02:10:05 PM

I agree; I don't like that this is how cascade works but the REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO Horses, UL, and Nerg definitely fall under that.

Redemption Aggie answer.

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on June 28, 2018, 04:09:06 PM

Based on the current rules, I don't see how Nerg stays in battle, so I see Harlot, Horses, and UL in battle.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #30 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:48:05 PM »

Aggie's answer is correct if UL was drawn off Horses. If it was in hand some other way then it is not cascaded. I believe Guardian and Aggie assumed different things about the origin of UL and both gave correct answers based on their assumption.

The Guardian · « **Reply #31 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:50:40 PM »

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #32 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:54:05 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 03:40:29 PM

The play the next enhancement affect of the ability cannot be interrupted but the rest of it can. Not alone can also be traced back to Hidden Treasures. Therefore it negates not alone.

Negating the trigger does not cascade negate an ability that is cbi.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 24, 2018, 04:41:38 PM »

I could be wrong but I believe Jeremy is saying if Paul negates (if your lone great prophet enters battle you may) ability on HT it then casscade negates any enhancement played due to a lone green prophet entering battle. Is he wrong? If

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #34 on:** July 24, 2018, 05:35:44 PM »

Yes, he is wrong, it won't hop the CBI status of the play ability

Jeremystair · « **Reply #35 on:** July 24, 2018, 05:57:14 PM »

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 24, 2018, 05:35:44 PM

Yes, he is wrong, it won't hop the CBI status of the play ability

That is not entirely true here is the guardian stating that Cascade negate can hop a play the next enhancement effect.

Quote from: The Guardian on July 24, 2018, 01:52:15 PM

If Unif. Lang. was one of the cards drawn by Dream, it is cascade negated. If it was not drawn by Dream, it is not cascade negated.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #36 on:** July 24, 2018, 06:58:50 PM »

That is not entirly true. The negation of unified language would happen if it was drawn off dream, not hopping the CBI of dream.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #37 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:27:44 PM »

I'm not saying that I like the way that Cascade negate works but that is the way it is being ruled right now even you agree with me.

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on June 29, 2018, 06:53:24 AM

Cascade negate should not hop any CBN or CBI ability. Those abilities happened and everything after them is a result of them. Therefore no longer tied to the original ability.

By the logic used for it to be able to hop then we should just negate the 1st card in battle every time we are being removed because it will make its way to the removing enhancement and negate 4, 5 ,6 cards along the way by hopping CBN/CBI status and that is not intuitive. Negates should stop at the first CBN/CBI ability they come to because that ability stays and everything after is a result and tied to that ability.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #38 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:11:20 PM »

That is from a post that I was arguing against it and to the best of my knowledge we never got a definitive answer on that. I have NEVER said that it should hop, always said it stops and that is how it has always been ruled in our area.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #39 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:52:58 PM »

I guess this is the best scenario that will explain how Cascade negate hops over a cannot be negated. If your opponent makes a rescue attempt and they already have search this turn and you block with the Harlot and band to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar goes and gets fire foxes Nebuchadnezzar ability is cannot be negated but if your opponent has initiative and negates the Harlot that kicks Nebuchadnezzar out of the battle and negates fire foxes. Do you agree?

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #40 on:** July 24, 2018, 09:17:22 PM »

No, a CBN ability got fire foxes, fire foxes is not negated

Jeremystair · « **Reply #41 on:** July 24, 2018, 09:46:05 PM »

I'll try to explain why I think Paul can Negate hidden treasures Or any negate for that matter. We first have to put aside what we think should happen or how we been playing it from the past and just read the rules for what they're worth.

Hidden treasures has three effects that make up one ability.

REG Effects
An effect is part of an ability that acts upon a target. Targets are usually cards, abilities, or players.

REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.

Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect.

Hidden treasures second Effect is "you may play an Enhancement" This is a play effect

Hidden treasures third Effect is "or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck" This is a discard effect

REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.

REG Play (Play an Enhancement)
A play an Enhancement effect allows a player to play an Enhancement outside of the normal rules for initiative.

Special Conditions
● All play an Enhancement effects cannot be interrupted.

REG Discard
A discard effect moves a card from its current location to its owner’s discard pile.

So Samuel triggers the first Effect on hidden treasures because he entered battle alone. Now he gets to choose either the second effect or the third effect. If he chooses the second Effect and plays and enhancement the second effect cannot be interrupted. Now he plays not alone and bands Paul Into the battle. Paul Negates neutral cards. So he negates the first effect "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," Now by the rules of negate it states "If any effects (The second affect the playing of an Enhancement.) were carried out because of an ability (An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects) (In other words the whole card) that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated. And of course the playing of the enhancement can be traced back to the activation of hidden treasures Trigger effect.

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2018, 10:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 09:46:05 PM

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

If you negate the trigger it doesn't cascade negate the play ability on hidden treasures because it is cbi. And not alone follows from the play ability, so you'll have to do a better job of explaining why you think it should be cascaded.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #43 on:** July 24, 2018, 10:31:19 PM »

There is no such thing as a play ability! It is a play effect! Did you even read my post? An ability is the whole card. If you negate the first part it cascades into not alone.

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2018, 10:36:19 PM »

It all comes back to a play ability is inherently CBI, cascade DOES NOT hop CBI or CBN, it never has, CBI and CBN abilities stick even if the card is removed and are as put awhile ago are the foundation that hold what happened after them up.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 24, 2018, 11:14:37 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 10:31:19 PM

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

The effect that was carried out because of the ability that was negated is the "play effect". Then Not Alone activated because it was played not because of Hidden Treasures.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #46 on:** July 24, 2018, 11:24:55 PM »

Yes but the only reason it was played was because of Hidden Treasures and it can be traced back to Hidden Treasures.

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #47 on:** July 24, 2018, 11:27:57 PM »

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 24, 2018, 10:36:19 PM

It all comes back to a play ability is inherently CBI, cascade DOES NOT hop CBI or CBN, it never has, CBI and CBN abilities stick even if the card is removed and are as put awhile ago are the foundation that hold what happened after them up.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 28, 2018, 02:10:05 PM

In a similar question a while ago, (EC A banding to EC B who then CBN bands to EC C) it was ruled cascade doesn't stop at the first CBN and keeps going past it. By that logic the only thing left in this battle would be Harlot and a negated Horses. Why is this situation different?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:05:39 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 11:24:55 PM

Yes but the only reason it was played was because of Hidden Treasures and it can be traced back to Hidden Treasures.

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

So If I have a 3 character banding chain and character 2 is cbn. You would say that if character 1 is negated that character 3's ability would be negated even though he was brought in cbn?

Jeremystair · « **Reply #49 on:** July 25, 2018, 06:04:55 AM »

I'm not saying that's the way it should be done but I am saying that's what the rules say. Maybe we should take a closer look at cascade negate and change it. But as of right now yes.

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Author Topic: Paul. Hidden treasures (Read 12026 times)

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