Author Topic: Paul. Hidden treasures (Read 11886 times)

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #50 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:00:45 AM »

You keep skipping over that to the best of my knowledge that ruling was never confirmed and all-around is wrong. It has always been ruled that the cascade stops at a CBN or CBI.

Can we please get an elder to confirm wether cascade will or won't hop CBN CBI status or does it stop right there.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #51 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:17:19 AM »

I agree can we please get this confirmed once n for all. Does casscade negate hop? In the earlier question with the harlot banding to nebbi n getting Fire Fox. If you negate the harlot, does it cascade negate Fire Fox n it’s ability?

Jeremystair · « **Reply #52 on:** July 25, 2018, 08:54:26 AM »

Quote from: Ivek on July 28, 2017, 08:29:36 AM

Quote from: The Guardian on July 27, 2017, 10:26:19 AM

Quote
One more unnatural rule is the rule that cascade negate may negate the things that were a cascade result of a CBN ability. It seems more natural to understand that everything behind CBN would stay untouched from the cascade negate. So that's one of the rules that I've found hard to understand.

I'm not sure where you heard this rule, but that is not the case. If a CBN ability is activated, it "sticks" and cannot be negated directly (by a negate card) or indirectly (cascade negated). Example: I attack with Tribal Elder and band to Abraham who searches deck for Isaac and bands to him (CBN). If you negate Tribal Elder, then Abraham leaves battle, but Isaac remains because he was banded in by a CBN ability.

I understood the cascade negate rule so that if your character A bands a CBN character B who bands a non-CBN character C who bands a non-CBN character D and then your character A gets negated:
- his band ability would be negated (I still don't know what happens to the character B)
- the CBN band ability of the character B can't be negated - therefore character C stays in battle

And here one would think the CBN ability would stop the cascade negate in negating the character C and D
But, as I understood it, the cascade negate goes behind the CBN ability and negates it's results...
Therefore:

- character C gets negated but stays in battle - therefore the banding of the character D doesn't occur
- character D gets negated and out of the battle

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This ability is a monster for me to understand...

Quote from: The Guardian on July 28, 2017, 10:25:12 AM

You are correct on all counts. Character B would be kicked out of battle though his ability "sticks" which is why Character C stays in battle.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #53 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:23:09 AM »

That doesn't mean c in negated, what brought it in is CBN and that is the foundation that hold fire foxes up so it should still work.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #54 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:44:03 AM »

I'm just showing you where an elder said "You are correct on all counts" that includes "goes behind the CBN" hops as you said and still negates the other cards. Don't get me wrong I don't necessarily agree with this it's just that's the rules, I have shown you them in the REG. We can't just say that's not how it works.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #55 on:** July 25, 2018, 10:09:34 AM »

So then you are in a sense indirectly negating a CBN ability. Which is not intuitive. Every major tournament that I have attended including nats it has been ruled that it stops at CBN CBI. This is why cascade is bad for the game. A negate should only hit the exact ability you target, it would be more intuitive, these arguments wouldn't happen, rulings would be easier, and it would be easier as a whole to teach new players.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #56 on:** July 25, 2018, 10:26:58 AM »

Finally something we totally agree on!

Lex1122 · « **Reply #57 on:** July 25, 2018, 11:44:19 AM »

Ok and as for my original question is there a reason why Paul doesn’t indirectly negate not alone? Is there something different about these two scenario? Lone green prophet enters. Triggers HT. Plays not alone n bands to promo Paul that negates neutral cards. Does it go behind or hop to the not alone? Second scenario is the harlot to nebbi to Firefox. Is negating the harlot also indirectly negating Fire Fox?

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #58 on:** July 25, 2018, 11:55:55 AM »

In my experience this season at 2 state and 1 regional it has been ruled every time as no, not alone and fire foxes still work. That is why id like an elder to give a ruling which I do believe guardian did earlier saying not alone stays

Lex1122 · « **Reply #59 on:** July 25, 2018, 11:58:18 AM »

Stays n battle and negated but stays in battle are two very different things.

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #60 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:00:26 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 24, 2018, 01:34:26 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 24, 2018, 01:16:22 PM
Paul negates Hidden Treasures he just can't negate the play ability. So this is how cascade works REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO not alone definitely fall under that.

In the case of Hidden Treasures there is no "negated ability" to trace back to because the play ability is CBI.

Quote from: The Guardian on July 24, 2018, 01:52:15 PM

If Unif. Lang. was one of the cards drawn by Dream, it is cascade negated. If it was not drawn by Dream, it is not cascade negated.

This quote supports my ruling that it doesnt hop, only if unified languages was drawn off dream because if they negate dream then you shouldn't have drawn it is when he is saying here.

Josh · « **Reply #61 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:08:50 PM »

I'm not an elder, but I've been in numerous conversations about Cascade Negation with some of them recently, and I can confirm this is how Cascade Negate works in English terms:

When an ability is negated, all other abilities that activated, directly AND indirectly, due to the negated ability are negated.

So for Harlot - Nebby - Fire Foxes, and Harlot is targeted by a Negate: Fire Foxes stays in battle, because a CBN ability put it there. However, Fire Foxes entered battle because Harlot's band ability started a chain of abilities that brought Fire Foxes into battle, so Fire Foxes is negated.

Reach of Desperation, Draw 3, play an enhancement you drew, Reach is negated: The Played enhancement stays in battle, because Play abilities are CBI. However, Reach's Draw 3 was responsible for putting that enhancement in your hand, so the enhancement is negated.

Abishai - Joshua - Captain is blocked by Twelve-Fingered Giant: Abishai is negated, so Joshua is kicked out of battle. Joshua is CBN, so Captain stays in battle. However, since Abishai's ability started a chain of abilities that brought Captain into battle, Captain is Cascade Negated.

And Samuel attacks, uses Hidden Treasures to play Not Alone, bands in Paul: Hidden Treasures is negated, except for the Play ability. Not Alone stays in battle. Since Hidden Treasures didn't put Not Alone in your hand, negating Hidden Treasures isn't going to Cascade Negate Not Alone. Not Alone was in your hand, Hidden Treasures' Play ability activated, and it put Not Alone from your hand into battle. Negating Hidden Treasures doesn't Cascade anything here.

The Guardian · « **Reply #62 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:25:31 PM »

^^Elder stamp of approval^^

jbeers285 · « **Reply #63 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:26:10 PM »

Josh this has not been my understanding.

In the first scenario there is nothing directly or indirectly negating FF because Nebby brought it in CBN. The completion of Neb's CBN add to battle is the completion of Fire Foxes ability. There is nothing directly or indirectly touching Fire Foxes.

Quote from: The Guardian on July 25, 2018, 12:25:31 PM

^^Elder stamp of approval^^

Seriously???

Cascade keeps evolving. I don't see this having been the standard at any nats I've been too. Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.

The Guardian · « **Reply #64 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:29:54 PM »

Fire Foxes completion is the completion of Harlot's ability.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #65 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:31:16 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 25, 2018, 12:26:10 PM

Cascade keeps evolving. I don't see this having been the standard at any nats I've been too. Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.

This is the way I've always seen it ruled by Elders on the boards so at least it's consistent. I completely agree cascade is ridiculous though. It's not necessary, it's not beneficial in any way, and it needs to die.

Josh · « **Reply #66 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:02:33 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 25, 2018, 12:26:10 PM

Cascade is absolutely ridiculous.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 25, 2018, 12:31:16 PM

It's not necessary, it's not beneficial in any way, and it needs to die.

Patience. Just because I can articulate how Cascade works doesn't mean I like it or agree with it

Cnakeeyes · « **Reply #67 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:03:03 PM »

Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?

Jeremystair · « **Reply #68 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:08:00 PM »

Josh · « **Reply #69 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:10:54 PM »

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 25, 2018, 01:03:03 PM

Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?

The enhancement played by Dream is Cascade Negated if it was one of the 3 cards drawn by Dream. If it was in your hand before Dream was played, it can't be Cascade Negated.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #70 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:24:11 PM »

Quote from: Josh on July 25, 2018, 01:10:54 PM

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on July 25, 2018, 01:03:03 PM
Then why is the enhancment played after dream not negated if dream is negated? You can cascade hop over a CBN ability but not an inherently CBI one? How does that make any sense or be intuitive for teaching and ruling?

The enhancement played by Dream is Cascade Negated if it was one of the 3 cards drawn by Dream. If it was in your hand before Dream was played, it can't be Cascade Negated.

Yeah because we know everyone is monitoring what 3 they drew and are going to be honest about that. (Even if they wanted to be honest the odds of knowing for sure all the time are low)

Jeremystair · « **Reply #71 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:24:14 PM »

Quote from: Josh on July 25, 2018, 12:08:50 PM

I'm not an elder, but I've been in numerous conversations about Cascade Negation with some of them recently, and I can confirm this is how Cascade Negate works in English terms:

When an ability is negated, all other abilities that activated, directly AND indirectly, due to the negated ability are negated.

And Samuel attacks, uses Hidden Treasures to play Not Alone, bands in Paul: Hidden Treasures is negated, except for the Play ability. Not Alone stays in battle. Since Hidden Treasures didn't put Not Alone in your hand, negating Hidden Treasures isn't going to Cascade Negate Not Alone. Not Alone was in your hand, Hidden Treasures' Play ability activated, and it put Not Alone from your hand into battle. Negating Hidden Treasures doesn't Cascade anything here.

I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.

REG Negate
If any effects were carried out because of an ability that is negated, all of the negateable effects that can be
traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated.

REG Effects
An effect is part of an ability that acts upon a target. Targets are usually cards, abilities, or players.

REG Abilities
An ability is a set of sentences with connected effects within a special ability. The effects may be connected by a common target or set of targets, by being paired with a previous effect or by an effect needing information about the target(s) of a previous effect. An ability targets the cards its effects target.
There are three ways an ability can activate its effects: Immediate Effect, Activated Effect and Triggered Effect.

Josh · « **Reply #72 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:41:33 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 25, 2018, 01:24:14 PM

I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.

The problem with your logic is that "Once per turn, if your lone Green brigade prophet begins a battle" is not an ability or an effect. What does it do? Nothing. It can't exist by itself, because it literally does nothing by itself. It merely clarifies when the Play ability works. You can't negate something that doesn't do anything. It's identity is tied to the corresponding Play ability, and once the Play ability happens, the whole thing is CBI.

Otherwise, cards like Samuel's Edict could be negated, even if used by a lone judge w/ no special ability, because you could negate the phrase "If used by a Judge with no special ability". Or Bravery of David, by negating the phrase "If used by a lone Warrior".

Basically, if an ongoing trigger is tied to a CBI or CBN ability, and the trigger is tripped and the CBI/CBN ability happens, you can't negate the fact that the trigger was tripped and activated a CBI or CBN ability.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #73 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:50:37 PM »

Quote from: Josh on July 25, 2018, 01:41:33 PM

Quote from: Jeremystair on July 25, 2018, 01:24:14 PM
I don't see how you don't understand that the play effect is part of the ability and if the play effect cannot be interrupted but the first part of the ability is interrupted and prevented after hidden treasure targets the hand for playing the card it can still be traced back to Hidden Treasures Cascade negated indirectly how you put it.

The problem with your logic is that "Once per turn, if your lone Green brigade prophet begins a battle" is not an ability or an effect. What does it do? Nothing. It can't exist by itself, because it literally does nothing by itself. It merely clarifies when the Play ability works. You can't negate something that doesn't do anything. It's identity is tied to the corresponding Play ability, and once the Play ability happens, the whole thing is CBI.

It is an effect! It is a trigger effect. I'm just saying it can't be one way for one card and a total opposite way for another card just cuz that's the way we want it to work. See if you chose to do the third effect instead of the second one someone could play the three woes and negate that ability.

Hidden treasures has three effects that make up one ability.

Hidden treasures first Effect is "Once per turn, if your lone green brigade prophet begins a battle," This is a trigger effect.

Hidden treasures second Effect is "you may play an Enhancement" This is a play effect

Hidden treasures third Effect is "or discard an evil Enhancement in an opponent's deck" This is a discard effect

REG Triggered Effect
An ability with a triggered effect has an effect that is waiting for event to occur be activated. A triggered effect always has a condition that is checking for an event to happen. Triggered effects may be ongoing or instant. When a card with an ability with a triggered effect is played, the condition activates and begins checking for the triggering event to happen, and the condition is triggered when the event happens.

Josh · « **Reply #74 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:50:56 PM »

Quote from: jbeers285 on July 25, 2018, 01:24:11 PM

Yeah because we know everyone is monitoring what 3 they drew and are going to be honest about that. (Even if they wanted to be honest the odds of knowing for sure all the time are low)

I'm just quoting the rules as they are currently written. I absolutely agree with you that a negatable D3 is a massive problem, regardless of Cascade Negate. Both players are responsible for maintaining the integrity of the game state; how can I maintain the integrity of the game state if my opponent draws 3 and then I negate the D3? How can I prove that the 3 cards he put back on top of the deck are the 3 he drew? I can't.

Same thing if they play Unified Language off of Dream; if my opponent says "UL was in my hand, I didn't draw it off of Dream", how can I prove that? I can't. I'm Restricted (see what I did there?

) from carrying out my responsibility to maintain the integrity of the game state.

And you and I both know how hard it is to remember which cards you drew with which abilities in the middle of an extended battle. At OH States, when you negated my Messenger of Satan after he had banded to Nergalsharezar w/ Horses and a bunch of other abilities had activated, I had no idea which 2 cards I drew via MoS vs. which 2 I drew via Horses. No idea. And you said "Just do the best you can", because you knew you'd be in the same boat if our roles were switched.

Negatable Draw abilities are actually a separate (arguably bigger) problem than Cascade Negate. Even if Cascade Negate goes away, it won't solve the problem that is negatable Draw abilities.

News:

Author Topic: Paul. Hidden treasures (Read 11886 times)