Author Topic: Patriarch Noah  (Read 3632 times)

Offline spacy32

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Patriarch Noah
« on: June 20, 2017, 09:45:53 PM »
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I was going through the old cards and came across Patriarch's Noah. His ability reads:

"If Noah's Sons are in play, Noah may gain their strength (*/) and their special ability until the end of battle."

If the REG says that Noah's Sons and Shem, Ham, and Japheth are the same unique character. How does it play with this card?????
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 09:58:45 PM »
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You can copy at least one of their strength/SA.  Probably just one, otherwise you have the potential for other cards naming cards to hit multiple targets.

The grammar is unclear - "If Noah's Sons is in play" would limit it to one card.  "If Noah's Sons are in play" means it could be all of them.

Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 10:03:58 PM »
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which is why i need clarification from the elders. Noah's Sons is a gold patriarch card with crappy ability.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 11:04:45 PM »
+1
The grammar is impossible. "Noah's Sons" as a named card seems to be the intent, but the use of the plural verb necessitates that it's talking about Shem, Ham and Japheth (who were one card with a terrible ability at the time of Pats Noah but have since been made into individual cards). The plural verb continues when referring to gaining their strength (which would be a permanent +16/0 every time he attacks with all 3 out), but then there is number disagreement between "their" and "special ability." That will simply need a bottom-up interpretation as to whether to privilege the plural "their" or the singular "ability."

In the same way, we could easily fix the Seize Him! mistake by choosing to privilege "return" instead of "territory" in that sentence.

*EDIT* The capitalized "Sons" would seem to lend credence to Noah only applying to the named card but Redemption is just too full of random capitalization prior to TEC to put as much stock in that as the consistent plural verbs.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:27:22 PM by Minister Polarius »
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Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 11:23:59 PM »
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I can't wait to see how this gets rules...the suspense is killing me
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 12:01:58 AM »
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REG -> Glossary -> Duplicate Cards
Quote
When a card or special ability references a character by name, it can be applied to any version of the named character.

I think there's an exception for a card naming itself, but "Noah's Sons" on Noah can apply to any of the 4 cards.

Also, the increase isn't permanent since it has a duration (until the end of battle).

kariusvega

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 12:07:40 AM »
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so does he get all of their abilities if they are all in play?

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 12:12:02 AM »
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If a card targeted Jochebed, what would that mean for Moses' Parents? Sure, that'll never matter, so what about this: High Priest Annas targets the Sanhedren, of which Nicodemus was a member. Can he search out the crappy blue hero?

The question remains, do we privilege the plural adjective or the singular noun when it comes to gaining their powers? I definitely want to attack with Pats Noah to Not Alone to get a nice little double-tap on the sons XD

Just checking, "protect flood survivors in territory" won't let them still be protected if they're later banded into battle, right?
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Offline Ironisaac

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 11:46:41 AM »
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Just checking, "protect flood survivors in territory" won't let them still be protected if they're later banded into battle, right?

That is correct.
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Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 01:40:10 PM »
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Still waiting for an answer on this from the admin's
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 02:01:34 PM »
+1
I'm not saying this is an official ruling, but the point Polarius brought up in regards to "Noah's Sons" vs "Noah's sons" makes sense to me in that Noah is only referring to the card "Noah's Sons" not the characters Noah's Sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth.

While capitalization in older sets has been somewhat arbitrary, this might be one instance where we can say the ability is pointing to a specific card.

Again, not official...just my  :2cents:
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Offline Xonathan

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 02:18:28 PM »
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Personally would like to see a super Noah
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Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 12:49:29 AM »
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I'm not saying this is an official ruling, but the point Polarius brought up in regards to "Noah's Sons" vs "Noah's sons" makes sense to me in that Noah is only referring to the card "Noah's Sons" not the characters Noah's Sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth.

While capitalization in older sets has been somewhat arbitrary, this might be one instance where we can say the ability is pointing to a specific card.

Again, not official...just my  :2cents:

In that case can we get an official ruling from somebody
Two wrongs don't make a right but three rights make a left. Either way, God will get you there.

Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 08:00:16 PM »
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still waiting for Gabe or someone to give me a ruling so I can utilize this for this season.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 08:09:40 PM »
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This is a card game. Cards do either exactly what they say or what the rules say about them. Noah refers to "Noah's Sons". This means he can copy the old gold Hero named "Noah's Sons". The fact that other cards exist that happen to be male children of Noah is irrelevant, the card game doesn't know that nor does it care. For this even to be debatable there would need to be a REG entry called "Noah's Sons" and it would have to define what cards fit into that category.

Edit: Apparently such an REG entry does exist.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 08:34:46 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 08:28:47 PM »
+1
Quote
The fact that other cards exist that happen to be male children of Noah is irrelevant, the card game doesn't know that nor does it care. For this even to be debatable there would need to be a REG entry called "Noah's Sons" and it would have to define what cards fit into that category.

It can be argued that that's covered under the "Duplicate Cards" entry in the REG Glossary.

Quote
When a card or special ability references a character by name, it can be applied to any version of the named character.

These are unique characters with different card titles:
...
Noah’s Sons (Pa) or Shem (CW)/Ham (CW)/Japheth (CW)
...

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 08:37:24 PM »
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Quote
The fact that other cards exist that happen to be male children of Noah is irrelevant, the card game doesn't know that nor does it care. For this even to be debatable there would need to be a REG entry called "Noah's Sons" and it would have to define what cards fit into that category.

It can be argued that that's covered under the "Duplicate Cards" entry in the REG Glossary.

Quote
When a card or special ability references a character by name, it can be applied to any version of the named character.

These are unique characters with different card titles:
...
Noah’s Sons (Pa) or Shem (CW)/Ham (CW)/Japheth (CW)
...

You are definitely right, I control+f'd "Noah's Sons" and didn't find that for some reason. Since the REG clearly does in fact define Shem, Ham, and Japheth as being targetable under the name "Noah's Sons", Noah can definitely target them with his ability. From the wording of Noah it seems to me like he would only be able to copy one of them at a time.

Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 09:38:05 PM »
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Quote
The fact that other cards exist that happen to be male children of Noah is irrelevant, the card game doesn't know that nor does it care. For this even to be debatable there would need to be a REG entry called "Noah's Sons" and it would have to define what cards fit into that category.

It can be argued that that's covered under the "Duplicate Cards" entry in the REG Glossary.

Quote
When a card or special ability references a character by name, it can be applied to any version of the named character.

These are unique characters with different card titles:
...
Noah’s Sons (Pa) or Shem (CW)/Ham (CW)/Japheth (CW)
...

You are definitely right, I control+f'd "Noah's Sons" and didn't find that for some reason. Since the REG clearly does in fact define Shem, Ham, and Japheth as being targetable under the name "Noah's Sons", Noah can definitely target them with his ability. From the wording of Noah it seems to me like he would only be able to copy one of them at a time.

I agree it should work but the reading on Noah of "their strength" could mean all of them. Just want an official ruling from the elders of how it should be played because I want to try it but I don't want it to be an obsolete deck because of a ruling.
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Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2017, 09:07:37 PM »
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Bump
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 01:52:28 AM »
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Since the REG specifically defines Noah's Sons and the individual named sons as being interchangeable, I would rule this as being a valid play until and unless that entry is contradicted by an elder.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 09:17:25 AM »
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My feeling is that Noah (Pa) can choose any one of his "sons" that is in play.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 09:40:47 AM »
+1
A simple solution to this problem is to never play Patriarchs Noah or old Noah's Sons in combination with the Cloud versions of these characters.  :amen:
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Offline spacy32

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 08:06:38 PM »
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A simple solution to this problem is to never play Patriarchs Noah or old Noah's Sons in combination with the Cloud versions of these characters.  :amen:

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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 08:28:49 PM »
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A simple solution to this problem is to never play Patriarchs Noah or old Noah's Sons in combination with the Cloud versions of these characters.  :amen:

While that could be good advice in constructed (I haven't looked at the strategic advantage of the Patriarchs Noah yet), but you might draft Patriarchs Noah and his sons from CoW (along with other flood survivor support), and make running Patriarchs Noah the best strategic option even if he can't copy one of his sons from CoW, but we still need to know if he can.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Patriarch Noah
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2017, 08:39:26 PM »
+1
It was a joke, guys.
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