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Hello Gents,

This just happened in a game, so I am curious...

Passover Hymn reads:  "Negate and discard up to X curses or evil enhancements in play..." [X = number of your disciples or musicians].

Now, suppose I have 3 musicians in play, and I play Passover Hymn. So, I can now negate and discard up to 3 curses or evil enhancements, right?

So, my question is: can I negate/discard a combination of curses and/or evil enhancements, or can I only affect one particular kind of card?

EXAMPLE: In the game I was playing, I had 3 musicians out, and I was trying to negate and discard one EE and one curse, but my opponent said no, you can't do that. You must choose only one type of thing to negate/discard - you can either choose curses or evil enhancements, but you can't negate/discard a combination of the two. (In a nutshell, he was saying that I could negate/discard up to 3 curses, or up to 3 EE's, but no mixing or matching was permitted).

So, I had to choose -- I could negate/discard either the EE or the curse, but not both. So I chose the EE. After that, my opponent ended up winning the battle because his curse stayed active, and he used the curse to win the battle.

So, I am curious what y'all think...

Is it really just one kind, or can you do a combination?

*NOTE: My opponent justified his position by saying that the card would have to read "and/or" (not just "or") for me to do what I wanted it to do.

Thank you!   

The Play-As is meant to correct or update ambiguous or outdated wording - which just "or" definitely is. The document is new(ish), so there's probably some kinks to work out - I don't know if this is one of them, or correct. I think the Play As is correct, I'm just not sure.

Since there are older cards with the and/or wording, why didn’t the creators simply word PH’s ability this way? It seems to me that it was intended for PH to target either curses or EEs, but not both. If it was and/or, then that changes the card significantly, which means it needs to be errata’d to read “and/or” instead of it being a play-as.

Good point. No hard feelings by the way.

Here is another point, (from a commonsense perspective), which may shed some light into the intentions of whoever wrote the card (perhaps that is who needs to answer the question, right?)

How many curses could a person have in play at the same time? (1, 2, or perhaps 3 at the most? Unless of course it is a group game). But I just can't imagine this card being that great if you could only target curses, because you may have 5 disciples or musicians out, but you would only get to affect 1 or 2 curses -- the whole idea of cranking up the numbers by using "X" doesn't really make sense if you are targeting only curses -- enhancements maybe, but not curses -- there just aren't that many out there at any given time.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Thank you for your input.

God bless & good night,

Eric

The Play-As is meant to correct or update ambiguous or outdated wording - which just "or" definitely is. The document is new(ish), so there's probably some kinks to work out - I don't know if this is one of them, or correct. I think the Play As is correct, I'm just not sure.

How is PH’s ability “definitely” ambiguous or outdated wording? If it was intended to be “and/or” the card creator would have worded it that way since there were other, previous cards with that wording already in existence (as I cited in my earlier post), particularly since there are other cards that give you the choice of targeting one thing or the other. The only way we are to know for sure is if the elders who created the card post something here explaining why the wording needs to be play-as “and/or” instead of “or.”

And here is another wrinkle with the Passover Hymn.

The identifier reads:  "Hymn, X = # of your Disciples or Musicians".

It's the same problem -- because it says "OR," does that mean you have to count ONLY disciples, or ONLY musicians?

In my deck, all I had was musicians, so it didn't matter, but what if you had a mixture of disciples and musicians, would you count all of them? Or, would you pick one type, and just count that type?

If a combination is OK, shouldn't the identifier read "AND/OR" also?

Thanks

And here is another wrinkle with the Passover Hymn.

The identifier reads:  "Hymn, X = # of your Disciples or Musicians".

It's the same problem -- because it says "OR," does that mean you have to count ONLY disciples, or ONLY musicians?

In my deck, all I had was musicians, so it didn't matter, but what if you had a mixture of disciples and musicians, would you count all of them? Or, would you pick one type, and just count that type?

If a combination is OK, shouldn't the identifier read "AND/OR" also?

Thanks

You must pick EITHER Disciples, OR Musicians for the identifier.

Quote from: emonier on March 02, 2018, 10:47:48 AM

And here is another wrinkle with the Passover Hymn.

The identifier reads:  "Hymn, X = # of your Disciples or Musicians".

It's the same problem -- because it says "OR," does that mean you have to count ONLY disciples, or ONLY musicians?

In my deck, all I had was musicians, so it didn't matter, but what if you had a mixture of disciples and musicians, would you count all of them? Or, would you pick one type, and just count that type?

If a combination is OK, shouldn't the identifier read "AND/OR" also?

Thanks

You must pick EITHER Disciples, OR Musicians for the identifier.

If that’s the case with the use of “or” in that sentence/instance, then why is it different for the SA?

It's possible the ORCID Play-As entry was an error. I will ask Jordan if he can comment. It's possible it's one of those things that was simply understood incorrectly and no one ever questioned it.

Thanks sir.

Hey Guys,

There is another card with the same (AND/OR) issue...

Gloria in Excelsis Deo (Di) says: "Negate and discard X curses or weapons in play..."

Should this be played as: curses AND/OR weapons?

Also, in the identifier, it says X = # of your musicians or NT angels.

Should it be played as musicians AND/OR angels?

Thank you,

Eric

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 02, 2018, 11:05:21 AM

"From the way the identifier reads, it could be changed to simply disciples and musicians, because if you choose a smaller pool for x it is the same as going "up to" that same value for both pools."

Where are you quoting this from?

I don't know, didn't even remember putting quotes around it. Just my ego talking 

Interestingly, I just came across this card that’s in the same set (Disciples) that PH is in. In light of this card, it seems to me that PH was intentionally written to just be “or.”

Behold the Lamb - “Interrupt the battle and reveal a Lamb icon card in your hand to discard up to 3 evil enhancements and/or curses. Cannot be negated.”

Or maybe they just forgot the AND in Passover Hymn. It could have been a typing error that has now been corrected with the ORCID.

Yes, it could be that too.